Episode #13: Managing Up
In this episode we provide tips to help you Manage Up. From adopting the preferred communication style of your boss, to understanding their priorities and making their job easier, managing up means building trust over time through a record of consistent performance.
Managing Up Episode Recap
In this podcast episode, Julia and Kelly discuss the concept of “managing up,” which refers to effectively managing and building a positive relationship with one’s manager or boss. They explore various aspects of this skill, sharing personal experiences and insights. Julia initially felt managing up was negative, but she later realized it’s about creating a frictionless work relationship with a higher-up, enabling the real work to be done well.
The hosts provide 13 ways to manage up, with the first one being to make the boss’s job easier. They emphasize the importance of proactively offering help, anticipating needs, and providing support. The next point is to understand and adapt to the boss’s communication style, whether they prefer emails, phone calls, or in-person discussions.
They also touch upon the significance of considering the boss’s past career experiences and how it may shape their behavior and preferences. Building rapport with difficult bosses is essential, even if it means creating a relationship that isn’t overly personal. They stress the value of asking questions and fostering trust through consistent performance and problem-solving abilities.
Understanding the boss’s goals and aligning one’s priorities with theirs is crucial. Regular check-ins and clear communication about progress are recommended. The hosts advise against making assumptions about the boss’s feelings or opinions, suggesting direct communication instead. They emphasize the value of feedback, both giving and receiving, to strengthen the manager-employee relationship.
Lastly, they acknowledge that managing up can extend to client relationships as well, emphasizing the importance of building trust and rapport with clients. Overall, the episode offers practical advice for employees to navigate their relationship with their bosses more effectively and foster a productive work environment.
Episode Transcript:
Julia
Today’s episode is how to manage up.
Kelly Callahan
Yes. When anyone asks about our podcast, I’m always asking them, okay, so what sort of topics are you interested in hearing about or learning about? I was just recently talking to one of our partners, Punch Drunk digital out of Mobile, Alabama, and co founder Marcy Blanshan and suggested how to manage up. And so I thought that managing up is something that isn’t taught. It’s something that’s learned over time, over years of experience and different types of bosses that you have. So I thought it was worthy of discussion. Julia, why don’t you start with what do you think your definition of managing up is?
Julia
Okay. Well, I mean, I don’t know if this is the official one, but I think managing up means managing the manager. So, I love that this came from someone who has listened to the podcast. I think that’s so exciting, but initially, I wasn’t too into the subject, right? I kind of felt like managing up felt negative, I felt like, managing up feels like, oooh, I’m playing the game. And maybe it’s not all about me, I don’t know that probably sounds selfish, but, I’m more like, well, how is this gonna help my career? Right? How is managing up going to get me ahead, right? Then I started talking to other people about it. You and I always ask friends, people who know us like for input, so we’re on target, right? It is a real theme out there. In fact, I had a client say this in a meeting, “Ahhh, I just really need to manage up this, this needs to be done correctly.” And I’m not sure if there’s like a lot of great advice out there about it. I think it’s really creating a frictionless work relationship with someone who’s above you. And it could be multiple layers high, right? Managing up and making it frictionless doesn’t mean that you shouldn’t have great work debates. It doesn’t mean that you should always agree with your manager or your boss. It just means that there’s frictionless processes, so that the real work can be done, and hopefully done well. I think we both say this, like when your boss is the hero, you are the hero too. So I mean, with that said, manage up, right?
Kelly
Yeah, I mean, I had no problems coming up with 13 ways to manage up.
Julia
You really did, I kind of boiled them down.
Kelly
So I can start, we both had the same one for our first one, which is, making your boss’s job easier, right? I’m starting to think no one has ever actually said to me, “Hey, can I take something off your plate?” And that was kind of like, a little bit of a wow moment for me because I actually have never asked the boss the same question, and why not? That’s really your job. Your job is to make your boss’s life easier.
Julia
Wait, you’ve never asked that?
Kelly
I don’t think I have. Have you? Think about it.
Julia
Oh, yeah.
Kelly
You have?
Julia
Oh, yeah. If I go back to the relationship with my mentor, which I’ve talked about a lot on a bunch of our episodes, I mastered that technique. And mainly because, her and I had such a great relationship, like a base relationship, and we were just like in it to win it. So I knew that if I made things easier for her, hero all the way.
Kelly
Yeah. And that’s something that that’s definitely learned. This whole idea of anticipating, we’ve talked about being indispensable, being proactive, honoring their time and their schedule, giving them what they need before they ask for it. You know when they’re going to ask for quarterly income reports, right? You know when they’re going to ask for the status of a project, the social media posts for the week, case studies when a project is over. And I’m always surprised when I ask my team does anyone have not have enough work to do, because I’ve got a lot on my plate that I love to delegate it. I’m actually rarely taken up on it, and I would love to delegate. You wonder are people saying no, or not offering up because they are genuinely busy or they want to look busy? It’s hard to tell because we work in a small agency, and that’s one thing that’s a little bit of a frustration for me, but really, a lot of it’s also honoring their time. I had a boss one time follow me into the bathroom during a client meeting, asking me, well, really yelling at me as to why I was wasting her time being at XYZ meeting. And while it was a strange and rather inappropriate thing for her to do, she was right. Not everyone needs to be at every meeting, right?
Julia
Well, I mean, yeah, unfortunately, I feel like in this virtual world now, it’s like, invite the whole crew to the meeting. Let’s just zoom all day long.
Kelly
Yes, yes. So what other ways can you make your boss’s job easier?
Julia
So we’ve talked about this, like, take really good notes, right? That is a tool that will help you be proactive. And then also be there at the right time if your boss is overwhelmed, or has a question, and you will have the detail. One thing that I also did with my mentor is, we both kind of did this in tandem, but we kept the most monster master list of all the ideas we ever brainstormed with the client, even the ones they passed over. And on a periodic basis, we would go back to this crazy list. And I mean, one of the clients we worked on, we had for eight years so it was a long list. But some of those ideas that were, at the beginning of the list, we eventually brought those back ideas back because it was at the right time
Kelly
Recycling ideas.
Julia
Yeah, and so being the keeper of that list, again, allows you to be both proactive and reactive in the right way.
Kelly
Yeah.
Julia
Also I would say, another managing up type thing where you’re making your boss’s life easier is I knew where I could make a difference for my boss. So I stayed out of the way, when there were things that I knew she loved to do. She loved, like copywriting and coming up with the names of campaigns and things like that. Even if I had a great idea, maybe I’d throw it out there eventually, but I would say “Yep, that’s you” or “Oh, but this is me”. And then that also helps with time management, obviously, because I can pick up the slack I could fill into the gap when time was tight. So that was another thing. Anything else, Kelly? Of course, I
Kelly
Of course, I got plenty of ideas.
Julia
Well, in terms of making it easier.
Kelly
Yeah. So, I love to interview my dad prior to our podcasts. He is nearly 80 years old and while he’s getting on in age, he’s sharp as a whip when it comes to business and business advice. And so me and my brothers like to refer to his advice as his “dickisms”, because his name is Dick. So we don’t mean that negatively, but his “dickisms” can be rather funny and rather inappropriate, but also quite wise. So I will impart some of his wise ones. I asked him his advice on the topic, and he said “You need to be a problem solver over time. You need to think, to solve, to see and propose. You want your boss to listen long enough to accept you as a teacher, as you are able to find the connections between ideas to solve problems. But it’s more than that, by performing consistently, you’re able to convince everyone that you can see further.” I thought that was a really nice way of encapsulating how you can build trust with your boss over time, and how they’re going to accept your ideas. If you are a consistent performer, they’re more likely to listen to your ideas. And I love this idea of thinking, solving, seeing, proposing over time, and that being consistent.
Julia
Yeah, you bring up a really good point here that actually one of my clients was mentioning when she was talking about managing up was that balance between gaining the trust so that then you can be accepted as a teacher, but also to be there as a support, ultimately. That’s a real gray area sometimes, right? So like, for example, if there is no trust, then when you propose ideas, they might not go over? Which doesn’t leave you with a great feeling, it doesn’t leave your boss with the great feeling, and it could have been a great idea, but for some reason, it just got blocked because the relationship wasn’t there, right? They’re not open to seeing you as a teacher. So even if you have a boss that you don’t necessarily particularly love, or you don’t have the desire to have like a friendship with them, you have to find a way to build that trust. Until you do, you will not be accepted as a teacher.
Kelly
I love that.
Julia
People resist it.
Kelly
Yeah. And that means being reliable, making your deadlines on time. Are you following through what you said you would do? Are you keeping your word? Trust is something that’s built over time. Never lie, always tell the truth, even if it’s hard. Be honest, but diplomatic about it. That is really an anchor part of the conversation in terms of how important trust is, in your boss’s relationship with you?
Julia
It goes like it goes both ways, right? Because if you are making things easier for your boss, then that also gains trust.
Kelly Callahan
Let’s dig a little bit deeper and talk about communication styles of your boss, because I’ve had some really crazy out there bosses who had very specific communication styles. You need to know is your boss, a phone person, are they an in person person, are they an email person? Do they want hard copies, and I’ve had all sorts of bosses. Back in the 90s, I had a boss whose office was right next to me. And believe it or not, you could actually smoke in your office back then. She would close the door and she would smoke all day. So I had to email her. I wasn’t allowed to open the door and talk to her she only wanted me to email and it was like right next door. So you really have to adapt to their style, however crazy or, opposite it may be to your communication style. I tend to see that the more senior up you go in any organization, especially on the client side, they want to do things in person, they want to talk either on the phone or have it be in person. Communication by email is not the preferred method of communication. So you also have to think about how senior they are, etc. Also, the higher up you go, the more big picture they are so they don’t want to have all the details. I think we’ve talked about this in past podcasts in terms of is the boss, a conceptual person, are they a detailed person, so making sure that you adapt to how they want their communication imparted to them. So, don’t be afraid to pick up the phone. But whatever communication method is used, make sure that you are a clear communicator, because that really is our job in marketing. And I had a couple of thoughts, but your thoughts like communication styles?
Julia
I also think that this perhaps could be a generational thing as well.
Kelly
Oooh yes!
Julia
So like, I’m a millennial boss, right. And so, I love the phone, which I associate, as you know, kind of maybe more of an old school thing, but I love the phone call. But I also really appreciate someone realizing that not everything is a phone call, and you could probably put it in an email. So there’s also just like that balancing of what is appropriate for what type of communication. Sometimes your boss, if they’re not an email person, it’s still okay to email them because you feel passionate that it needs to be in writing. So in those cases, I do think it’s appropriate to, do that if that’s not necessarily their communication style.
Kelly Callahan
So let’s talk about one area that you had mentioned that I hadn’t thought of, which is personal style.
Julia
Yeah, well, and this also kind of goes to like, who are they, what are their preferences? I have many examples of when I was frustrated with various bosses that I work with, and I got so caught up in the frustration, I couldn’t figure out how to start managing up. And I kind of boiled it down, like their personal style was just so different than mine. Right? You could put communications in there too. So I had a boss that wanted to bond with me, and I’m a bonder, but was she, and I never got to understand what was going on. This was like my first job out of college. She was so into just bonding with me because she got that vibe for me, but then I was never able to like understand how I was going to get a promotion, how I was going to get better training. Ultimately, we were just not on the same page, so terrible fit. And of course, I was young so I didn’t have that perception yet. Then I had a boss, that gave me so much freedom, and then at the last minute wanted to be in the details. So I’d get super enraged, but I didn’t see how I could have been managing up. If I had just said to myself, okay, they are going to want the details. I could have made that relationship so much smoother. It’s what you said, like when we opened, you just got to anticipate those things and don’t resist. I guess that’s my takeaway for all of these things. All of these things may not feel great, all of these tips and tricks, but address the uncomfortable and don’t resist doing it. You’ll learn some things along the way about what works and what doesn’t.
Kelly Callahan
Well, that’s a really good entree into the next topic, which is dealing with difficult bosses. We talked a little bit about in our episode on failure. We’ve all had difficult bosses and some of us have done well in managing difficult bosses and some of us have not. I asked my dad for his “dickisms” on how to deal with difficult bosses, and how do you disagree without losing your job. And he had an interesting perspective which I liked. He said, “In order to disagree with your boss’s perspective, you need to build a bridge and have a migration strategy, you find a part of his idea that works.” For example, if he has an idea for a campaign, and you don’t agree with it at all, but there’s a certain part of it that you do you agree with, then you find that minor part of the idea that you like, and you figure out how to shift it in a different direction. He says “In conflict you need to be an incrementalist, you need to find common ground and that way too many people are radicals by proposing an idea that’s so far out in the future that no one’s gonna buy it. More can be accomplished a little bit at a time.” And you can’t achieve that unless you have a record of consistent performance with that particular boss, right? You can’t be an incrementalist, unless they trust you. You need to communicate that your ideas are helpful, they’re truthful, they make the business run better. Because of your historical consistent performance in your role they can’t say that you’re being a braggart because you’re linking to success that you’ve had in the past andthat is, and this idea that you’re having is an anchor level improvement to that. I love this idea of being an incrementalist it’s just pushing a little bit at a time, and also, grabbing an idea, of course you want to be able to promote the boss’s idea, but you may not necessarily agree or the team might necessarily agree, but maybe there’s a part of it that you can turn into a bridge to shift it a different direction. And I thought that was a neat way of explaining that.
Julia
I feel like I’ve definitely perfected that over the last several years. I think that’s like spot on. I would just put a caveat on that. There are some times where you just have to say, I don’t agree. And there’s nothing about their idea that you like, and that you think it’s not right. Now, that should be the minority of the time, right? You gotta save those for when it’s really worth it. The rest of the time, you need to find that bridge and get your migration strategy. Totally agree.
Kelly
Well, one of the other things that you were talking about in your notes is how someone’s past career experiences have influenced how they work today. Can you talk a little bit about that?
Julia
Oh, yeah, this is a great story, and I’m sure people have met people like this. So one of my first bosses was the most scary, hardcore woman I’ve ever met. Like if I ever ran into her in the grocery store, I still would be scared. Literally, still be scared. In my green horn opinion, she felt really ice cold. Like, when she would come into a meeting, I would just be like, stand to attention, and when she would address me and ask me, it was like, I couldn’t even form a sentence. So just setting that up, she was definitely an interesting person. So if I hadn’t been so young, obviously with my first job out of college, I could have handled it differently and I would have had better insights and here’s why. Her past experience was that she was one of very few women in a male dominated industry. Women at her level with her responsibilities were literally just very unheard of. So I think she over compensated by being dramatically under emotional. That’s what that was her reaction. That’s how she had been shaped based on having a career surrounded by men. And I’m sure there was a way for me to like, humanize her by getting to know her better, but I didn’t stick it out long enough to know. But one day, I did make the mistake of confiding in her my frustrations on the job, and I actually started crying during this conversation.
Kelly
How did that go?
I mean, it was the end. It was the end, it was literally career suicide, because she never treated me the way in the same way again. It deflated all of my confidence that I could ever muster to be around her. Right? But if I had just taken a step back and said, okay, this person’s past career experience has influenced how they work. Maybe she was like, the most cuddly, warm person inside, but her work persona had been developed through her experiences. And if I had just stopped to think about that, I might have actually gone to her with my frustrations about my career in a totally different way, maybe not cried and then had a different outcome. So you know, you kind of have to do a little bit of digging to kind of understand where someone’s coming from.
Kelly
Have some empathy even though you’re not in agreement with how they’re projecting, maybe that’s coming from someplace else that has nothing to do with you.
Julia
Exactly.
Kelly Callahan
So how do you build a relationship with them and foster rapport, especially with ones that are difficult?
Julia
Oh, well, you know, I think you have to get over the relationship part. Especially if you think that the relationship will be fake. Right? In the first half of my career, I was like, well, I have no interest in getting to know them. I don’t know what insights that’s going to lead to it’s not going to be helpful, and so I would just roadblock it, right? It felt uncomfortable to me, I resisted it. And so my advice is not to do that. You can have a relationship that isn’t fake, but that isn’t close at the same time, in business, you can do that. You can do that by asking a lot of questions, being interested. making them feel like you said needed and trying to just get those answers so that you can kind of maybe figure them out, quote, unquote, because that will give you so much insight into how you can manage up effectively.
Kelly
I struggle with that a little bit, in some cases, because obviously, we all need to be humanized. You need to know, not just your team underneath you, but the team above you. So you know, what’s going on with you? Did you have a great vacation? How’s the dog, all these sort of things and consistently asking their input and thoughts because one of the other things is, bosses like to feel needed. They want to feel like, okay, I have an area of expertise and I can add value. So when you go to them and ask for specific advice, they love it. So for example, our current CEO, we asked him to come up with something once a week that we can post on social, some sort of thought in his head about XYZ, and he comes up with these great ringers, and it’s something fun for social that he wouldn’t ordinarily do. And again, it humanizes him too. So, those are some interesting ideas, and making them feel needed is really important, because we do need our bosses, right?
Julia
Yeah, I will say that there are a certain amount of bosses that are just not good bosses. And there are certain people that are bosses and also very toxic people.
Kelly
Yes.
Julia
And that’s where some of this advice does get a little tricky, right? I would never say stay in an emotionally abusive work situation, right? There’s certain things where it goes too far. So if someone is that way, should we be saying, yes, foster some rapport with them? Maybe not, it might be that situation, you do have to put up barriers and make a clear defined box of what you’re going to do and how you’re going to accomplish it. And maybe there are just very small, subtle ways to make them feel needed, and foster rapport and build a relationship so that there is some trust, but there are definitely caveats to it.
Kelly
I agree, and I think we’ve talked about some of those things in the past and other podcasts. Another thing is, understanding what they care about what’s important to them, different bosses have different positions within organizations, and every boss cares about money, right? They care about financial matters, quarterly projections, any accounts that have won, lost, project cancellations, they want to know feedback positive or negative that you hear from the client. I think that’s another huge one is, as a boss myself, I never want to be blindsided, I’d rather you tell me something that’s negative before I hear it from a client or anyone else. So never be in a situation where you wait to see if something gets played out, you gotta be able to get your boss on your side and explain the situation and give them any crucial information, just don’t leave them out of the loop. And I think that’s one area where it would really, really ruin a relationship if you if you don’t make sure that they’re prepared, because one day they might get a call from a client and you hadn’t prepared them for that conversation and that difficult call and that’s not good. Really understanding, some bosses, especially in advertising, the ones that come with creative backgrounds want to see the creative before it’s presented. The ones with a strategy background, they only care about the creative brief, and they don’t care about the creative, so you really need to understand and some are super anal and want to see every single revision of the ad. So you really need to kind of ask those questions, because you don’t want to waste their time, to make sure that you’re giving them the information that they need in their care about while still being able to do your job and move jobs forward.
Julia
Yeah, so take away from there is you have to get good at asking questions. I feel like I’m still learning this. Right? For instance, like on a new business pitch, asking the right questions and continuing to ask questions to uncover more insights is so crucial to success for winning a new client and onboarding. That’s just one example of got to get good at the questions.
Kelly
Yeah and then in terms of getting on the same page as your manager’s goals, making sure that your priorities line up with theirs, what I like to do is have a weekly check in with my boss, to make sure that they know, here’s what I’m working on the project my priorities are the same as your priorities, and respecting their time, giving them agenda ahead of time so they know what you’re going to be talking about. Also be solution oriented, don’t just come to them with problems. If there are problems that come up, here’s the three solutions that I’ve come up with to solve this problem, there’s ways that that can be done as well.
Julia
Yeah, I once worked with someone who, I’d get a meeting on his calendar, to talk through projects, issues, like just a whole host of things to have a check in. He’d come to the meeting, he’d be like, what is this meeting about? And it would just start off the whole meeting on the wrong foot, because I had not given an agenda and time for him to prepare, so he felt prepared and confident coming into the meeting. I learned that the hard way for a couple of meetings and then and then realized, oh, this is with my boss, I have to truly prepare. It’s not like I’m getting together with a co worker, we can just spit ball together, you know?
Kelly
Yes.
Julia
You have to be focused and organized and put together.
Kelly
Respect their time.
Julia
Yep.
Kelly
There’s a couple other things with regards to assumptions, number one, don’t assume the boss’s stress has to do with you. I’ve had bosses who come into the office, and they’re all pissed off. And you’re like, oh what do I do or am I gonna lose my job? So just ask them is, hey, you seemed stressed is there anything I could do to take off your plate, find out what’s going on. Don’t assume that it’s all because of you. I think the tenure at the top, things roll downhill, so the attitude at the top, if it’s not a positive attitude or something negative is happening, then everyone feels it within an organization. So you have to be careful there that you’re setting the right tone as a boss, and if your boss is stressed out, there can be things that you can do to help them eliminate those but you have to ask.
Julia
Yeah, totally. I was definitely the employee that took it personally, sometimes, like, oh, what did I do? Asking, is everything okay? When it should have just been like, how can I help, you seem stressed. Can I help you prep? Can I take a meeting off your hand today? Like, you got to be dialed in, emotionally, sometimes.
Kelly
So this is a big one, don’t assume that your boss knows everything that you do, and knows everything that’s on your plate. Because I don’t know everything that’s on all of my employees plates all the time. I don’t know how long it’s going to take them to do XYZ. And so I asked individual people in my office as part of managing up, it’s not just me managing up, I want them to manage up and have that experience as well. So if you’re in charge of social media, I asked them on a Friday to email the CEO, all the social media that we did for the week, no links, attachments make it easy for him to look at, so that he knows all the work that we’ve done social media for the week. Email recaps after client meetings for individual account managers, etc, making sure that they’re touting their own work, and tracking their own accomplishments, and I am as well. So I think it is important to kind of go over in those meetings, here’s all the things that I have on my plate, and it’s not just about demonstrating how busy you are, but they need to be aware of what you’re working on.
Julia
I’d float that up to the top, Kelly, in terms of managing up, because then when you go to that manager and ask for a raise, or you ask for a better title or more responsibility, you’re going to have something to fall back on. Because you’ve documented, you’ve had conversations about what you are up to. The worst thing is when an employee feels undervalued, because they haven’t taken the time to build the trust, and they’re frustrated and then they ultimately may really want to leave. And they go to the boss to be, like, well, I want a better title and the boss is like, oh, why? And then they have to start building that trust with that list right then in there with a really big ask. And I think you’re probably most likely not going to be successful in that type of scenario. So you gotta do it on the regular. Give them bite-sized windows into what you’re doing, the amount of effort it takes to accomplish things so that they have understanding, and then they can appreciate.
Kelly
Yeah, I mean it’s the one on ones, it’s a status meetings. But beyond that, one of the practices I used to do, and I probably need to start it again, is, I would send my boss a Friday email, here’s all the things that we completed this week, here’s what’s happening next week, not a long email. FYI, here’s some of the potential things that could come up, blah, blah, blah and, I got lots of good feedback that was something they wanted.
Julia
That’s like the perfect thing to put on your calendar, like, a 15 minute block on Fridays at 2pm or something, Where you just bang out that email. I mean, such a good use of time.
Kelly
And my last one that I had, unless you have others was, ask for feedback. Bosses love to give feedback.
Julia
Yes, question, question, question.
Kelly
Not just during your reviews, but at the beginning of a project, “hey, in my head in the right direction?”, in the middle of the project, not just at the end. You may be able to get some valuable advice that’s gonna help you on that path. And again, don’t assume they know how long you’ve been there and what you’ve achieved. So document all of those things.Feedback is really important. Which also links back to bosses like to be asked for advice, and that’s important as well.
Julia
Yeah, it kind of goes back to my sales training, and my first job, that was one of the most valuable things is I did a pretty intensive sales training and when you’re trying to sell something, that could be equated to managing up, right? You have to stop talking, and ask the questions so that you can listen and get the feedback. That’s the most important part of the sales process, or I would say the managing up process. Well, these were so good, I loved diving into this topic. It was such a good reminder for me also for managing my client relationships.
Kelly
Yeah, you don’t have a boss anymore!
Julia
I know I’m the boss, I need to manage up to the boss!
Kelly
Managing up can also mean to your clients, right?
Julia
Exactly. It’s such a good reminder to me, just a really good refresher. It all works with clients, too.
Kelly
Alright, thank you for your time today.
Julia
Thanks, Kelly.
Kelly
Have a great weekend. Bye!
