Most brands don’t lose because they’re inferior. They lose because they’re indistinguishable. In this episode, Kelly sits down with John Gumas, President of Commit Agency and one of the country’s leading authorities on Challenger Brand Marketing® — to talk about the one thing most marketing skips entirely: real Discovery. Not research that produces data, but the kind of deep, uncomfortable questioning that surfaces why customers actually choose one brand over another. If you’ve ever inherited a positioning you didn’t build, sat through a workshop that went nowhere, or been told the answer to your brand problem is just more budget — this is the conversation that should happen before any brief gets written.
Most brands don’t lose because they’re inferior. They lose because they’re indistinguishable. That’s the opening line of Episode 93, and it sets the tone for everything that follows.
John Gumas is the President of Commit Agency — which he founded in 1984 as Gumas Advertising in San Francisco before it merged with Commit Agency in 2025 — and one of the country’s foremost authorities on Challenger Brand Marketing. He’s the author of the book by the same name, an adjunct professor in branding and advertising, and a sought-after speaker. For four decades, he’s helped brands that are outspent, out-resourced, and outnumbered find the one thing that makes them impossible to ignore.
John’s answer is immediate: assuming you know what your customers want and why they choose you. Most brands, he argues, confuse visibility with differentiation. They believe that spending more will win more. But if your message doesn’t differentiate you — if it sounds like everyone else in your category — all you’re doing is amplifying sameness. You’re not building preference. You’re funding the status quo. And the only brand that wins that game is the one spending the most money.
Most discovery processes, John explains, are designed to validate — to confirm what leadership already believes. His process is designed to challenge that. Research tells you what people do. Discovery helps you realize you’ve been asking the wrong questions all along. What he’s looking for is something he calls “the truth”: the real reason your best customers choose you over every other option they had. That truth doesn’t live in a survey or a focus group. It lives inside one-on-one, confidential phone conversations — where people can’t see you, can’t perform for a room, and are more likely to say what they actually feel.
John’s process is built on three sources. First, external: your best customers. What do they love about you? Why did they choose you over the competition? Second, internal: the key stakeholders inside the organization who understand the essence of the brand. The agency’s job, he says, is not to create a brand they are not — it’s to extract the brand that already lives inside them. Third, competitive messaging: not products, not pricing, but how competitors are talking to the same people you’re trying to reach. Taken together, those three data points are where the breakthrough positioning lives.
John uses financial services as a master class in the problem. Banks, credit unions, fintechs — they all sell the same regulated products. Same car loans. Same home loans. Same rates. When you compete on features in a category of sameness, you dig yourself deeper into commodity territory. The only winner is whoever spends the most. What John’s process typically uncovers is something much deeper than product: customers don’t just want a home loan. They want to be part of an organization they can trust, that supports their community, that reflects their values. When you position around that movement, you stop attracting transactional customers and start building long-term loyalty — the kind that generates referrals, multiple products, and retention that no rate promotion can buy.
John’s response to this challenge is direct: you can’t just present the truth. You have to make it undeniable. That means including leaders in the discovery process so they hear it for themselves, see it for themselves, feel it for themselves. His experience: 100% of the time — not 99, not 98 — what clients believe their customers need to hear is not what their customers actually say. That moment of revelation is the first breakthrough. After that, the data is hard to argue with. And for the rare client who does argue it anyway, John is clear: they almost deserve what they get. The data doesn’t lie.
For marketers who’ve stepped into a brand they didn’t build, John’s advice is this: don’t assume it’s right just because it currently exists. Start by asking whether it’s actually working — not just meeting goals, but surpassing them. Then pressure-test it: Does it differentiate you from your top competitors? Does it reflect your customers’ real truth? Do you own a unique and relevant niche you can describe and defend? Is it guiding daily decisions, or collecting dust on a shelf? If anyone loves it immediately, it’s probably too safe. Great positioning should force choices. It should make clear who you’re not as much as who you are.
Challenger brands aren’t built on legacy thinking. They’re built on courage — the courage to rethink, reposition, and own something no competitor can claim.
Kelly Callahan-Poe: Most brands don’t lose because they’re inferior. They lose because they’re indistinguishable. I’m Kelly Callahan-Poe, host of the Marketing Moms podcast. Today’s episode is called How to Win When You’re Outspent, Outscaled, and Overlooked with John Gumas. John is the president of Commit Agency, which he founded in 1984 as Gumas Advertising in San Francisco before it merged with Commit Agency in 2025. John is recognized as one of the country’s foremost authorities on challenger brand marketing as the author of the book with the same name and Marketing Smart. He’s an adjunct professor in branding and advertising and a sought-after speaker. For four decades, John has helped brands that are outspent, out-resourced, and outnumbered to find the one thing that makes them impossible to ignore. His clients have included Sandisk, HP, Mattel, Yonex, and the San Francisco Giants Community Fund. Welcome, John.
John Gumas: Hi, Kelly, great, so great to be here, thank you.
Kelly: We can also see that you’re a huge fan of the San Francisco Giants right behind you, correct?
John: Yeah, I think that’s a good guess.
Kelly: All signed baseballs?
John: They are all signed, every single one of them.
Kelly: Excellent, excellent. Great background. Well, John, you’ve spent 40 years watching brands try to outspend their competitors. What’s the one mistake you see over and over again that keeps them getting stuck?
John: I’d say the biggest mistake is assuming that you know what your customers and your prospective new customers really want — and assuming why they choose you over your competitor. That’s the most consistent thing that we see. Specifically when it comes to your brand messaging, you don’t want to confuse visibility with differentiation, or confuse the need to spend more money — social, digital, conventional media — with generating more results. Just taking the time to dig a little deeper to develop your true differentiation and understanding what that differentiating brand messaging really needs to say. The real reason why the market chooses to do business with you versus your competitors — we refer to that as the truth. And most brands believe if they spend more, they’ll win more. But I would strongly argue that if your message, your brand, your positioning doesn’t resonate or differentiate — if it sounds like everyone else’s message in your category — all you’re doing is amplifying sameness at best. You’re not building preference. You’re funding the status quo. And that’s typically where challenger brands fail. The one brand that wins the spending game is the one spending the most money. Challenger brands are not that brand. Challenger brands need to understand that they need to be relevant and they need to be different. You don’t win by being louder. You win by being meaningfully different — by out-thinking, not outspending. And that difference has to be rooted in data. It has to be relevant. It has to be true. And it has to be something that your competitors are unwilling and unable to claim. You’ve got to own something.
Kelly: So like most agencies, you have a discovery process that includes data. Can you walk us through what your process is, how it’s different, and how you handle your discovery and your research to dig into some of those insights? Is it qualitative research? Is it focus groups? What are the things that you do?
John: Sure, absolutely. The discovery in the Challenger Brand process — and I say in almost every marketing process — is the most critical point of the process. Because it is going to point you in the right direction, or it’s going to point you in the wrong direction. And most discovery processes are designed to validate. They kind of validate what a client already believes. Ours is designed to challenge that whole theory. It isn’t about extracting inputs. It’s about uncovering the truth. The real reason why your best customers choose you over your competition and why they love you. There’s something at the core of that.
John: What we have to do is challenge your brand marketers to extract that. So what we’re looking for is the gap — the gap between what the category says, what your competitors are saying, what your customer truly feels, why they love you, and what your brand can credibly own and ultimately defend. That’s where the breakthrough positioning and your true messaging lives. It does not live in consensus. It lives in contrast. What do you do that nobody else can do? And what can you own? Getting to that point is where I think most challenger brands get off track. Because it’s a little unnatural to get there. It’s so easy to follow the easy track. Challenger brands have to dig a little deeper. They have to go beyond the obvious. So what they ultimately have to do is uncover the real reason why their customers — and just as importantly, their prospective new customers — would choose them over the competition. Your prospective new customers have a lot of choices. You have to convince them that you’re different from all of those choices. So we call that the truth. And the truth lives in every single challenger brand. Our job as an agency is to extract that uniqueness — to pull it out, because it exists — and then to articulate it in a very powerful brand messaging that you own, that is unique to you, and that you can defend from anyone.
John: And this truth really comes from three critical data points. The first is what we call external — your best customers. We want to speak to your best customers and find out why they love you. Why did they pick you over the competition? We go through a very unique and very different questioning process. The questions have been vetted over 40 years to extract from your customers the real reason why. So the first group is your customers. The next group is internal — the key stakeholders inside the organization. Could be CEO, CMO, COO, marketing director. Those folks inside the company who understand the essence of the brand. Our job as challenger brand marketers is not to create a brand that they are not. Our job is to extract the brand that lives inside of them. And we take that data, couple it with what their best customers are saying, and build that together. But there’s one more piece. We do a deep dive on the competitors — not their products, not their pricing, not their distribution channels. We’re looking at their messaging. How are they selling the same people we’re trying to sell? Because at the end of the day, if competitors are spending more than us, we have to be different. We have to have a message that’s more powerful than theirs, or we need to own a niche in that market. Those three points of contact are where we get our data: external customers, internal stakeholders, and competitor messaging.
Kelly: So what are you doing for qualitative research?
John: I’ll answer that in a different way first. Research — qualitative research — typically gives you answers to the questions you ask. But discovery, and this is the difference between research and discovery, discovery helps you realize you’ve been asking the wrong questions all along. Research tells us what people say, what they click, what they buy. It gives you real insight that you need to develop powerful branding and powerful marketing campaigns. But direction comes from having a true understanding of why those patterns exist and what emotion is behind all of those decisions. So if you want to walk out with charts, you’ve got research. But if you want to walk out with conviction — insight that changes what you’re willing to say, and sometimes more importantly what you should not say — now you’ve got real discovery. That’s where powerful marketing programs get their start. It’s not about how much you spend. It’s always about what you say. It’s about that message that resonates and connects with your audience and differentiates your brand from the competition so the decision to choose you is an easy one.
Kelly: In terms of uncovering emotional drivers, how are you doing that?
John: We don’t believe in written research — written surveys, data collection forms. We don’t believe in focus groups, and I’ll tell you why. What we do believe in is one-on-one, confidential telephone conversations. In a written survey, it’s so easy for the respondent to just check the box and give you the easy answer. And the easy answer typically is not the real reason why they choose you. In many cases, they can’t even articulate quickly the real reason. So it’s up to us to extract that. We also avoid focus groups for messaging work, because there’s always one or two people who dominate and influence everyone else. The problem with both of those forms of data collection is they don’t always give you what you need to know. They don’t give you the real essence behind why somebody chooses your company. And that’s where the danger lies. You go down the wrong path with your marketing, your messaging, your brand, your positioning — based on information that is not, what we refer to as, the truth. So we talk to customers one-on-one on the telephone, because they can’t look you in the eye. You get that real insight into what’s driving them.
Kelly: When you go through this process, you may find two or three different avenues that make sense for a client to go down. And of course you’re taking all of the competitive information and mapping out what everyone is doing now — to see where you stand. Making sure that the new position you come up with is distinguishable is point one, but also that it fits the brand. And a lot of times, selling it to get the client to take that leap can be one of the biggest challenges. So what happens when you uncover a truth that contradicts what leadership has believed for years? How do you handle the politics of maneuvering that? I’ve been in many situations where clients love a positioning, but it’s not backed by research. What are your thoughts?
John: You’re in the business, you get it. That is the moment where strategy either lives or dies. Everything that we do needs to be based on data, which is driving the strategy. Not based on what I think, or what someone in the company assumes. The biggest mistake we see is: if you put “I think” in front of any sentence — I think this is what we should say, I think this is what our customers want — that is the most dangerous position any company can have. Because you want to get to the point where the data is so clear you can say: I know this is exactly what we have to say. I know this is exactly what our customers need to hear. I know this is exactly what differentiates us from our competition. There’s this interesting phenomenon that happens when you’re involved in a company day in and day out: it’s almost impossible to step outside of it and look from the outside in, the way a prospective new customer would. So you create assumptions in your mind that you know what those customers need. And on a side note, we believe all your external marketing should be designed for people who have never heard of your company before. How do you explain that to somebody in seven seconds or less? That is the ultimate challenge.
John: So you can’t just present the truth. You have to make it undeniable. And that’s what the Challenger Brand process does. What we do is include the leaders in the discovery process so they can hear it for themselves, see it for themselves, feel it for themselves. If they do that, they’ll understand that this is strategic, it’s data driven, and it’s not an emotional exercise. By eliminating any personal bias from the process, you get closer to where you want to go. You also need to let them know that this was built on data and fact, not assumption or guessing. And sometimes — to your point — you get folks who just don’t believe that. And I would argue that anyone who argues the data almost deserves what they get, because you can’t argue the data. The data doesn’t lie. Challenger brands win because they’re willing to confront uncomfortable truths that their competitors typically avoid. For the record, we do rarely encounter this sort of contradiction through our discovery process, because it’s so thorough and the data is so powerful it’s very hard to disagree with the findings. The brand position and messaging, when the data is done correctly, almost writes itself. Everyone kind of looks at the end and says, of course that’s it — because it’s so logical.
Kelly: A huge component of that is trust — trust in that partnership with the client, having built that relationship where they’re willing to hear and listen to what you have to say. You are that trusted advisor they can go to, right?
John: Of course, absolutely. Collecting the data like that and showing them the process — and they’re involved in it, they’ve experienced it, they’ve experienced the same process their customers went through — builds that trust. And a little side note: when we speak to our clients’ customers, 100% of the time — not 99, not 98, but 100% of the time — what our clients think their customers need to hear from them is not what their customers tell us. That, during this process, is the first aha moment for our clients. Do they choose to believe what their customers are saying or not? And all the time, they do, because the facts are so clear.
Kelly: But we’ve all been in that position where we present a beautifully crafted, research-backed positioning statement that everyone’s agreed on — and then it goes nowhere. What’s broken in the way that both agencies and clients approach positioning work?
John: Most positioning work is designed to get agreement, not create impact. You end up with language that’s carefully worded, broadly acceptable, and completely forgettable. No one disagrees with it. No one rallies around it either. Great positioning needs to feel a little uncomfortable. It should force choices. It should make it clear who you’re not as much as who you are. So if anyone loves it immediately, it’s probably too safe. It’s up to the agency to defend the approach and deliver a brand position and messaging strategy that will generate results — not one that’s safe and forgettable. Great positioning should always deliver messaging that only you can say. And you can defend that positioning from anyone in the marketplace for years to come. We like to call that becoming famous for something. Clients who are truly trying to make a difference understand the process, because we as agency folks and marketing experts have to prepare our clients for it — explain to them why we’re doing what we’re doing, what we’re trying to get, and include them in the process. If you do that, most of the time the client gets it, applauds the results, and sees it. And sometimes — this is the reality of our business — you just get clients who don’t buy in. Luckily, that’s very, very rare. But at that point, you need to make a choice as an agency: do you want to be part of something that may not achieve its full results, or not?
Kelly: Can you give us an example from the discovery process — a moment where discovery completely changed the direction of a campaign or a client you’ve worked with?
John: Let’s talk about the financial industry. We do a lot of work there — banks, credit unions, fintechs, other organizations in that space. The truth about the banking and financial industry — and this applies to many other industries — is that they all sell the same products and the same services. They’re all regulated, so they all have the same car loans, the same home refis, the same home loans. They’re selling things identical to their competitors. As a result, they’re just promoting sameness and digging the hole of commodity deeper and deeper. They typically believe their true differentiators are things like better rates, better service, better people. Well, doesn’t every financial institution think they have better rates? And in many cases, their rates are regulated — so they may not have better rates or better service or better people. The only one that wins that competition is the one spending the most money. In the world of a credit union or community bank going up against Chase or Bank of America, who spend billions — guess who wins that fight?
John: So typically, what they don’t realize is that the only unique feature they have is their brand — not their products, but their brand. When we take these clients through the discovery process, we’re able to uncover something much, much deeper than their products. The real driver for their customers isn’t rates. Their customers want to be part of an organization they can trust, that supports their community and reflects their values. They’re not at the heart of this just looking for a home loan — they’re looking for a brand they can be part of with a mission they believe in. And most financial institutions are scared to go down this route. So instead of competing on features, we position these clients around believing in a movement — the good things the brand does for the community, how it helps people, makes their lives better. That shift in messaging results in their products being sold better than ever. And what you also get is not transactional customers who leave when a competitor offers a better rate for a week — you get long-term customers who believe in you. Those customers buy multiple products from you. Those customers refer their family and friends. It has this huge domino effect. But if you fall into the product marketing trap in an industry of sameness, all you’re doing is promoting yourself as a commodity and digging that hole deeper and deeper.
Kelly: We touched on this a little bit, but oftentimes marketers inherit a brand positioning that they didn’t build or frankly don’t agree with. What is your process for figuring out whether to evolve what exists, or recommending that it needs to be blown apart?
John: I think that’s the hardest dilemma for every new marketing director coming into a company. My advice: don’t assume it’s right just because it currently exists. We ask our clients a basic question: how is that current marketing program working? Is it working or not? Are you surpassing your goals and KPIs? Not just meeting them — meeting them is a basic expectation. Are you surpassing them? If the answer is yes, maybe the current brand position is in good shape. But if the answer is no — you’re not surpassing your goals, your brand differentiation is not obvious in the market — then maybe it’s time to reevaluate. And that’s your justification to reevaluate.
John: Then pressure-test it. Take your three, four, five main competitors, put them on a wall, write the positioning for each one. Where do you stand? Are you different? Are you like everyone else? Ask: does it reflect your customers’ real truth — and do you even know what that is, or is it just your assumption? Do you truly own a unique and relevant niche? Can you describe it and defend it? And is this positioning guiding daily decisions, or is it just a deck sitting on a shelf gathering dust? You have permission as a marketing director to challenge it. That’s your job. You may find it’s great and doesn’t need to be touched. Or you may discover something that needs adjustment — or needs to be entirely redone.
John: Challenger brands are not built on legacy thinking. They’re not built on looking backwards. They’re built on having the courage to rethink, to reposition, to dig deep and look at things differently — and having the courage to own a niche in the market that no one else can own, that you can defend and win. The industry as little as a year or two ago is not the same as it is today. What worked from a marketing, branding, and positioning perspective a couple of years ago probably doesn’t work as well now. So challenger brands need to always be adjusting, looking, and challenging themselves. Being comfortable with the status quo is dangerous. For any new marketer, this is their opportunity to make a mark — to take their company through this process, understand what their customers truly need to hear, and discover the truth. When you get to that point, everything works better — your social media, your digital marketing, your traditional marketing, your PR. Because it’s not about spending more money. It’s about saying the right thing. And when you say the right thing — the thing that connects and resonates with your targeted audience — that’s when the magic happens.
Kelly: Any final thoughts on Challenger Brand Marketing?
John: Don’t assume you know what your customers need to hear. Don’t guess. Don’t allow your personal bias to get in the way. And I say that with the utmost respect to everyone who is a marketer, because it’s so easy to fall into that trap. That trap gets you to a position where the only way you win is by outspending your competitors. And challenger brands — by the way, challenger brands come in all shapes and sizes. Pepsi is a challenger brand to Coke. Challenger brands are not just small companies. They can be any size, any industry. But if somebody is outspending you, you do not want a marketing strategy where your messaging is all about outspending, because you’re saying the same thing. Your position has to be to own something unique that you know — based on the data, based on the research, based on the discovery you’ve performed — is actually relevant to your current customers and your new customers. That messaging is what’s going to allow you to break through the clutter and be successful.
Kelly: Thank you so much for sharing your Challenger Brand insights today, John. We’re going to provide links to your website, your books, and your contact information in the transcript. Don’t forget to subscribe and share, and thanks for joining.
John: Such a pleasure, thanks Kelly.
Stay curious enough to keep growing, brave enough to follow your calling, bold enough to build the career you actually want — not the one you settled for.
