Stop Playing Small: How Great Women Lead

Episode Transcript

Kelly Callahan-Poe: If you've ever questioned whether you're good enough to lead, this episode will show you exactly how to claim your seat at the table. Welcome to the Two Marketing Moms podcast. I'm Kelly Callahan-Poe and today's episode is called Stop Playing Small, How Great Women Lead with Liz Weber. Liz has been named one of 2025's top 30 global gurus for leadership, along with Simon Sinek and John Maxwell. She's an advisor to boards, owners, and C-suite teams and the author of Don't Let Them Treat You Like a Girl and What Women in Leadership Need to Stop Doing. Welcome, Liz.

Liz Weber: Thank you, Kelly. Happy to be with you today.

Kelly: So talk to us a little bit about what are the most common habits or patterns that you see holding women leaders back today?

Liz: What I see most often is women tend to overdo it. And I've struggled with that myself in believing that when we are asked to come to a meeting and be prepared to talk about the XYZ project.

I would prepare the full slide deck, the full briefing packet, the full, you know, historical documentary we would have reviewed and notated and be able to answer every single question. So we were the experts. And I came to this realization that I was doing it and I started seeing it in a lot of my female clients that I was burning myself out over preparing because I wasn't truly understanding the purpose of the meeting and the outcomes that were expected. And what I mean by that, when the epiphany hit me, I was struggling to try to get a full slide deck created for a client to send to him, to be prepared for a strategy update. And all of a sudden, I said to myself, "What would a guy do?" And I don't mean that sexist, I mean, the guys that I was thinking of when I asked that of myself, they would do enough to be able to show the client, this is where I'm heading, am I on track or not? And instead of creating 37 slides, I created like eight. And I sent them to the client and I said, this is where I'm headed, is this the direction you think is gonna make sense for your group? And he came back and said, yeah, absolutely, I love it, keep going. And it gave me another day, but instead of working out the entire slide deck and thinking I had to meet a delivery, he just simply wanted to get an idea of where I was headed. So I share that because what I see with my female clients is quite often we're not fully appreciating the true either limited gist of the task or for some reason we think we have to prove how incredible we can do something to show our worth. And honestly, it's taken years for me to get there, but I'm finally at that point of being pretty comfortable and pretty confident in saying, you know, this is what I anticipate we're gonna be talking about today, so here's what I came prepared. And I will tell you, Kelly, if there have been times where I connect with a client and they start asking questions in a different direction, I will be the first one to say, wait a minute, excuse me, I need to tap the brakes because this is not what I thought we were going to be talking about today. And instead of having a panic attack, I just tap the brakes and say, you know, I'm sorry, Kelly, I misunderstood. When you said we were going to talk about XYZ, I was assuming you wanted to talk about the history of XYZ versus, you know, something else.

And so I think it's also getting much more comfortable in identifying where you're on track with them and where you're not on track.

Kelly: You've done a lot of research in this arena. Can you tell us what traits consistently separate great leaders from ineffective ones, regardless of gender?

Liz: Yeah, when I surveyed over 300 professional colleagues and associates in leadership space, and honestly, it doesn't matter if you are a mid to frontline level leader or if you're sitting in the C-suite. A couple common traits set individuals apart when they are really strong in leadership and when they're not. And the first trait, and I'm actually dealing with a male executive director in this, I'm having lunch with him tomorrow to discuss it as a matter of fact, is not fully appreciating the role you have, the responsibilities you are being paid to fulfill, and those that you're not. And defaulting and doing work that others who work for you should be doing, because either A, you've done it yourself, before you were promoted, or B, you believe you do it better than they do, or C, you don't want to be viewed as being mean and hold them accountable to do it themselves because they're being paid to do those things. So taking on more than what you're supposed to be doing of work that's at a pay grade or level below you. I see that consistently really starts to warp a leader's perspective of his or her role responsibilities and therefore not operating at the level that they are being paid to operate at, but operating at a level below quite often, and they're burning themselves out because they're trying to do two jobs instead of one really well. That's a predominant thing that I see.

The second skill set that I see, it ties into that and it's really not being strategic. It's being so busy being busy and being comfortable thinking that we're handling everything, that we're getting stuck in the minutia of checking things off a to-do list versus evaluating what are the critical things I should be doing that will really help elevate me or elevate this project or elevate my company to where I want it to be six months from now, 12 months from now, 24 months from now, 36 months from now. And am I doing things that are actually gonna move us in that direction or am I just doing busy things that give me satisfaction, because I can go check, check, check, check, check and get them done. That is a real challenge, particularly when you have team members coming to you and they're sharing ideas with bright, shiny objects, and they see the potential that these objects could create a little spark here or there, but realigning them to say, Kelly, interesting idea, but how is that actually really going to drive us to where we want to be 12 months from now? If it can, great, I just need to better understand, because I don't understand it as it's just been presented. So can you clarify that for me? And that skill set and that again willingness to tap the brakes and not react to something that is bright and shiny but instead be much more intentional about how we protect our time, our team's time, and really work on what is going to be most impactful versus immediately doable.

Kelly: There's something to that idea of at a certain level in your career, there's really not a job description. And so there's something to the idea that you present that what you may be spending your time on is not even in your job description. And so you're trying to do more because you feel like you need to, but perhaps it's not really there. So how do you avoid that? Is it a matter of clarifying that with your boss or, now instead of making an assumption that you should be doing these things.

Liz: That's a really great question. And actually that is a question that I work on with some executives that I've helped when they've taken on a new position, particularly when they've moved into the C-suite. And either they've never been in the C-suite before or they are joining a company and they're new to that particular C-suite. And the conversation we have is in addition to the function you were hired to fulfill.

CMO, CFO, CEO, whatever it is. Okay, there is a task of operational things that you have to do if you're going to be the chief marketing officer, chief financial officer. But the bigger question, and to your point though, Kelly, is what I recommend my clients look for is what else do they need that they don't even know they need? Because they hired you to be the CFO. So they're expecting you to come with some solid financial skills, some strategic thinking skills, some acumen into how to work across the organization. Those are some givens. You better have those. What else are they looking for that they don't even need yet? Do they need you to be the voice in the C-suite when they're having the conversations to be the contrarian not the pain in the neck contrarian, but the contrarian to say, hey, wait a minute, I understand the direction that we're going, but have we considered X as well? Because that may have an unintended consequence that we've not yet identified. And just causing them to possibly think differently, to think deeper, I think is hugely valuable. And that willingness to step outside your functional role a little bit to truly add value to your team, whether it's a C-suite or frontline production, is where I see the leaders that really excel, excel because yes, absolutely, they're great at their functional role, but in addition to that, they think bigger, they think beyond.

And it doesn't take very long for them to become a go-to person. And that's when they're differentiating from being a problem solver to being an advisor and to be viewed as a partner. And when you are viewed as an advisor or a partner, you are one of the first people that comes to mind when your organization has an issue and they want to run it by somebody.

I find that a tremendous position to be in because then you are early in the idea generation stage, so you can help shape strategy. That's a much stronger position to be in than hearing about it after the fact and going, wait a minute, why wasn't I involved in that conversation? When those types of scenarios happen, you're viewed as a problem solver. You're not viewed as an advisor or a partner. And so that's why I advise my clients, be okay in stepping out of your functional role and doing a bit more that's gonna help the team think a little bit differently, deeper, and more cohesively and collaboratively. It'll come back to serve you well.

Kelly: Let's pivot over to self-doubt. Self-doubt among women is a persistent pattern, even among highly accomplished women. Why do you think it becomes an issue, especially as you continue to grow and go up the ladder?

Liz: It's a challenge. I actually have a client right now who is very highly positioned and still struggles with it. And a lot of it in this particular case is decades old in the making. But from my experience with her and with other leaders, women and men, the self doubt comes in from my observation when they, when you conflate being liked with being respected.

And when you put more emphasis and value on wanting your team to like you, you tend to behave in ways where you, for the best of intentions, you create confusion, frustration, a lack of accountability, and more work than is necessary. And you frustrate team members more often than not. When you create an environment of trust and accountability, you are still kind, but you are also still willing to have a conversation and say, hey, Kelly, can we just have a quick one-on-one? I wanted to just talk with you about some observations I've had when we've had our virtual team meetings. And whenever Terry speaks, you roll your eyes and you sit back.

It may seem like not a big deal, but I can see it. Other team members can see it. And as a result, they're starting to shut down. And because of that, it's a great concern to me as a manager. So I want to hear from you, what's going on? Why do you seem to have that reaction, either intentionally or unintentionally? And see a conversation like that, I'm not being mean. I actually believe in being kind because either I'm making you aware if you're not aware, but I'm also giving you an opportunity and hopefully going to set you up to coach you out of that behavior. Or if you choose not to focus on that behavior, I'm going to coach you into understanding there may be ramifications for that behavior if you choose to continue it. I find that more kind than not saying anything at all and allowing you to roll your eyes during team meetings where everybody sees it. And then my team starts shutting down and everybody behind the scenes is talking to each other about you rolling your eyes and me doing nothing about it. And more team morale goes down and production goes down. So it's a roundabout way of understanding the impact of focusing on wanting to be liked and wanting to be a kind, respected, effective manager.

Kelly: For women who hesitate to speak up, what are some practical tips to stop playing small?

Liz: That's a great question. And I encourage women again, to remember, why are you even in this conversation? Why have you been asked to be there? Is it because of your position? Well then, again, this is where I go with my work. Given the position you have, given the salary you're being paid for that position, you are expected to bring your expertise and contribute to represent the issues, the insights, the concerns that your functional role or your team can bring into this conversation. So you have an obligation, I believe, to speak up and share. And if it's a matter of, I don't have anything else to add right now, at a bare minimum, I encourage you to say, you know, this has been really interesting. I'm gonna need to process this for a bit.

But I'm going to circle back if I have additional comments or questions for you, but I appreciate this. I appreciate the discussion we've had. Say something. And then I have no problem recommending then circle back after the fact and say, you know, in the moment I couldn't share anything during that conversation, but as I thought about it, and particularly when I was driving home last night, I thought about these three points that I'd like all of us to consider. Circle back and share the comments. But it's easier to build from something than to build from nothing. And if you're quiet too long and too often, you just get ignored. People don't even think about asking you for your opinion. And so if you say, I have got nothing to add.

I can't build upon that. But if you say, you know, this was a good discussion, or if you say, you know what, there's things about where this discussion headed that is not sitting well with me, but I can't put my finger on it right now, I'm going to ask all of you to give me some grace, give me some time, and I'm going to circle back to the group. But I can't vocalize it right now. That even is a stronger statement than going, having nothing to say. It's very different.

Kelly: Based on your research, are there any other things that you want to share with us that are challenges for women in terms of leadership?

Liz: My work with my clients right now and the research that I've done in the past in that the biggest challenge again is looking at and appreciating what does your team really need of you to do their jobs well versus, and to do their jobs independently and competently to the best of their abilities versus you believing they need more of you than they do?

Because quite often as a leader, and in fact I just had a conversation with a CTO before you and I had this conversation, Kelly, and he shared with me his director is a great, lovely person, doesn't give him direction. We'll say, well, you're the business lead, I expect you to make the decisions and know what's important. And he says, I've already done that, but I've got two priorities that are side by side and you say you need both.

I need you to tell me which one is the actual priority. And so I share that as a very specific example of, again, kind of what we were alluding to before, in the intention to try to be nice, don't fall into the trap of being unclear and create clarity for your team so that you can help them help you move forward.

Kelly: I think the biggest insight today was this idea of what would a man do? And you automatically, I guess, assume that a man would do less or be concise or not spend as much time or not overthink, right?

Liz: Yeah. And again, it's not an insult in this way. It's really not an insult. When I had that epiphany myself, it was really focusing on what is the real outcome that's desired here? You know, in my particular scenario, it wasn't, you know, a beautifully crafted slide deck. It was, this is a general idea. Is it good enough?

And I have to tell you, Kelly, I shared that advice of what would a man do with one of my nieces. She was being headhunted with two different universities, very prestigious, PhD, looking to head a department. And she asked me, do I negotiate my compensation package? And I said, I don't do compensation negotiations, but I shared the idea of what would a man do. And anyway, she got a fantastic offer and a deal.

And I just saw her recently and she thanked me for that advice because it helped her. But she said what it also did, Liz, as she said, I shared it with my colleague who basically is at the same grade, same scale at this university. And it caused the university to have to elevate across the board the salaries because it would be equal pay and equal opportunities for everybody. So I just share that again as look beyond yourself and ask the question, you know, what is a real outcome? What is a fair outcome? What is a higher outcome for this whole thing versus doing a lot of busy work?

Kelly: What a wonderful lesson. Thank you for sharing your insights today, Liz. You can find Liz's contact information and links to her books on twomarketingmoms.com. Don't forget to subscribe and share. Thanks for joining.