How to Stand Out in New Business

Episode Transcript

Julia: In this episode, we reveal our secrets and insights into winning new business, our best pitching advice, and of course personal stories of victories and losses.

Welcome to the Two Marketing Moms podcast. We are two women with more than 50 years of marketing and advertising experience between us and we want to talk about the struggles, the fails, and the wins that we experienced while building our careers. Being a boss, juggling work and home life, and arguably the hardest and yet most fulfilling job, being a mom. This podcast was created for marketing and advertising professionals, especially the up-and-coming marketing stars of the future. We hope these tips, tricks and advice will help you navigate work and life and get ahead.

I am Julia McDowell here with my co-host, Kelly Callahan-Poe. Today is a very exciting episode, because it’s something that everyone encounters in their career. And it changes from the beginning of your career toward when you’re experienced. So, this is how to stand out in new business. And of course, we will talk about some stories because who doesn’t have one. But we really wanted to start out with lots of advice and our POV from our experience. So, with that said, Kelly, take it away.

Kelly: So, there’s three things that we’re going to talk about today. The first is kind of one of the main factors of winning based on what we’ve learned from the past as to why we’ve won. The second thing we’re going to talk about is our pitching advice, our personal pitching advice that we’ve learned over the years. And the third, as she talked about is kind of our personal stories, the good, bad, the ugly. We won’t be able to reveal everything, but at least we can give you an idea of some of the crazy things.

I never understood those agencies that decided to be on that TV show called The Pitch because you never want people to see what really happens behind the scenes because it goes between chaos to last minute changes. And I can’t imagine showing all that on TV, but it probably does make good drama.

Julia: Oh, man, I wish they had continued that show. It was a really good show.

Kelly: So, what I love about pitching — I didn’t love it until the last five years or so, I think maybe eight years. I mean, I think you get into a groove with it. I have never seen myself as a salesman, and pitching is really kind of the ultimate demonstration of salesmanship. But it’s combined with theatre. And for me, that’s the exciting part of being part of a pitch — there’s a surprise, there’s some fun. One of the things that I used to have a creative director that said to me, every time you go to the client, you need to act as if you are giving them a present, and that they are opening the present and you’re generating this excitement to get them to love that present.

Because when you come to their office is usually the most exciting part of their day. So, you need to package it beautifully. And you need to make some drama about how you provide the present. So, new business is the ultimate form of giving that present. And you’re not selling your services, you’re solving their problem. And when it’s done well you have heads around the room nodding in agreement. And you know you’ve nailed it. And the key to pitching is not about talking about yourselves the whole time. And that’s the lesson that I’ve definitely learned over the years. They don’t care about your process, they don’t care about your awards. You need to focus on uncovering an insight about their target audiences, about their positioning and explain it in some way, shape or form. A lot of times with pitching, it’s not just about — they may be asking you to solve XYZ problem. But along the way, you may realize that that’s really not the problem they need solving. Maybe it’s the positioning that’s an issue or maybe they’re not reaching the right target audience. So, when you can reframe it in a different way, that’s another way of an aha — giving the present to them to say, we see this is the real problem, not what you think it is. It’s not necessarily a rebrand, it’s a repositioning. So, lots of things to talk about…

Julia: I feel like the present thing is so smart, because I think also it reveals the vulnerability in pitching because you really don’t know if they’re going to like the present you have to give them.

Kelly: That’s true, a lot of times…

Julia: I worked with a creative director for so long, who didn’t like pitching and did not see it as a present. And so, trying to hype up the team was an uncomfortable place for me for a long time. So maybe that’s part of why you didn’t like it to begin with either because it feels salesy.

Kelly: It depends on who’s leading it, and on your CEO. So, if your CEO is a creative director or comes from a creative background, it’s a whole other ball of wax. And you know, you’re up till midnight, coming up with ideas, and really pushing the envelope to make sure that whatever you’re providing to them is very creative. If it’s a new business person, or a general CEO with a business background, it’s all about strategy. And it’s not necessarily about a creative solution. I’ve seen different approaches, and some are more fun than others. And I think a hybrid approach is probably the best. But I think that’s the first thing that I wanted to look at. And I know most of these you’ll agree with, and I want to hear what yours are.

I’ve had an opportunity to kind of look down the list of all the things that I’ve won over the last five, eight years, and it’s come down to several main factors as to why we’ve won something. The first is an obvious one, we’ve had some sort of connection or a personal reference, a former client of ours, some sort of reference that somebody provided to that client that gave a positive reaction — this is the agency that you should choose. The second thing is because we’ve had a strong expertise in a specific area. So, for Williams Whittle, it’s nonprofit. We are the agency for nonprofits. And not only that, we are the agency for PSAs. And so, for PSA campaigns that makes it very easy for us to go in as an expert.

Then the third one that I have is we’ve worked with them in the past, they trust that we’ve been able to deliver and there’s a trust factor there. So, you’re not selling yourself there, you have a relationship that you’ve already built on. Another one is having a similar case study makes it very easy if we had something that we’ve done very similar to them in a specific category, solved a similar problem, that also made it easy. I think those are my top four, what about you?

Julia: I agree with all of those. I do think it’s worth mentioning, even the ones I’m about to mention too, is that sometimes the client does the opposite thing. So, for instance, you have a great case study, you’re pitching to someone in the food industry, and you have food experience. Sometimes on the call you feel really good about that, like this is our edge. And then the client says we want to go with someone with a fresh perspective, and we really feel like the XYZ industry is really interesting, and then you’re like, oh man, never see those ones coming.

I would sum up the first one that you said, the personal connection, foot in the door, also understanding your percentages of your chances to win, right? So, you always talk about this — can you find out who the incumbent is, who have they worked with? Is it a pitch that they have to do just because of procurement, or are they actually going out to look for a new partner because they’ve never had a partner or the partner they’re working with just doesn’t tickle their fancy anymore? And keeping it realistic, right, like how much time and resources do you put against it? I would also say chemistry. This one is hard if you’re in a situation where you don’t get an in-person pitch, right? So, a lot of the times, and you and I both work in the nonprofit arena, a lot of the times they send out RFPs and don’t have pitches. Like if you live in New York and you work for BBDO, you’re going to be on a pitch. You’re not going to just fill out a proposal and maybe have an interview, right? A lot of the proposals that I work on at least don’t necessarily have that component.

Kelly: There’s an email saying you won. You’re like, what?

Julia: When you get into the room, having the right people and having people who can really tune in to that chemistry component. That’s so important and not everyone can do that. They can’t read the room; they can’t read if they’re really jiving with someone. I’d add to that creative, because sometimes creative will just win, period. Like you can have the crappiest strategy and some clients will just go for creative. And then last, I would say also being priced right. And this might not be — this is probably reserved for like a few people putting together a pitch, right? Not everyone gets to put their two cents into the pricing. But I think that’s huge.

Kelly: Absolutely. And I actually didn’t even have that one on my list. And it’s an important one, it’s a very important one. And I think a lot of the points that you just mentioned kind of lead into our pitching advice, which also is kind of the same things that go for if you actually go after an RFP, if you are among those who actually complete RFPs. Not everyone does.

So, let’s go back to some of the things that you said, which is chemistry. And it’s really important because they watch how you interact with each other. They watch to see if you look like you have that camaraderie, if you look like you’ve worked together forever. I mean, I’ve had pitches with, for example, a new business person, where afterwards they say to me, how long have you guys worked together, you guys just have this great energy and you’re like, actually three months. But you know, you have to have that chemistry and you have to make sure that you are having different points and playing off each other. But I think one of the big ones, beyond the chemistry, is rehearsing, making sure that you’re supporting each other, you’re not talking over each other. Another one of my pet peeves is not answering the same question at the same time. And adding on — no add ons. That’s my major rule. No add ons, answer the question and move on. Because sometimes people just go on and on and on. And here’s another point. And here’s another point, and it just becomes completely…

Julia: I was at a pitch I was being pitched to. And the add ons literally went for 30 minutes. And I was, please stop the clock.

Kelly: So, what else? You have some more?

Julia: Okay for pitching advice? Yeah.

I don’t have like a clear POV on this. But you mentioned it at the beginning — theater versus gimmicks. And so, I’ve had so many conversations over the years, where people think theater is gimmicky. And as someone who started off my career in sales, and someone who is very comfortable in the sales role, right — I’m on my own. I am selling me and myself all the time. So, I’m good in that space. But maybe now I see it different. I don’t see them as gimmicks. I see them as theater. So, I’m interested to see how you feel about that.

Kelly: Well, that’s interesting, because I have a really good gimmick story.

Julia: Okay, good. Right. Everyone has a good gimmick story.

Kelly: But it’s a fail, it’s a massive fail and it wasn’t me who did it and I will not say who did it. But I did have a boss who at the end of the presentation actually said the words, “And now for the Ginsu knives set… We’re going to provide you a consultant deal, we’re going to offer you a half day seminar for free to go over your brand positioning… act now…” You know, literally said Ginsu knives — lost everyone in the room.

Be careful with the gimmicks which leads into another point. And this is my point. And we’ve talked about this before. I have presented creative or our teams that I’ve worked with presented creative unsolicited many times. I never ever remember a pitch where we actually won with unsolicited creative. And I presented some fun, fantastic stuff. And I can tell those stories here today. But I’ve never actually won with unsolicited creative except in the event of we were the incumbent and we knew a lot about that particular client. So, I always push back. It doesn’t mean that you can’t be creative. It doesn’t mean you can’t demonstrate your strategy in a creative way. But just coming up with the campaign idea that’s not asked for is stepping into a pile of who knows what.

Julia: Agreed. And I actually wrote down, you really want your pitch — and we’re talking about pitches in person, right? So, I think you want your pitch to be focused on, and I think there’s a book called this, a mentor of mine really lives by this — the one thing. Like, you have to keep it clear and concise, and focus on the one thing. And how is it a tree versus a stump, right? The tree has multiple branches. But that core is the one thing that’s going to get you to where the client said that they want to be. And as you said, sometimes where they say they want to be might not actually be the place, it might not be the thing. And maybe that’s your angle, right, for the pitch. But I really do think it has to be the one thing. And from that, I think at least one of the branches has to be something really new and cool. Like, I think you can pitch using tried and true strategy. But there has got to be something shiny in there. And I think that’s where some people get confused with gimmicks. The shiny thing can feel gimmicky to some people. But I think you just have to, as a group, figure out, is it really a gimmick? Is it really shiny? Is it really something that we can own? Is it also something that is really doable, right, because some people go into pitches pitching things that are just so out there just to get the attention? But it’s not really realistic.

Kelly: Or pitching what wasn’t asked for and trying to get additional work for things that they didn’t ask for…

Julia: Which is like the creative. You have to make that decision. Like, what is that little above and beyond thing that you’re going to do? And do you really 100% feel like it’s going to be the tipping point for you in a pitch?

Kelly: I love your analogy of the tree and the stump. And it reminds me of something that I’ve been studying lately that you might find interesting. I’ve been studying comedians.

And just from a perspective of, if you look at Chris Rock, if you look at Amy Schumer, you look at any of those comedians, they’re telling a story, and it’s a narrative about something and maybe something every day and something so ordinary, but there’s a thread of that story from beginning to end. And they continue to bring that thread through in a funny way. And that’s a lot of what we’re doing in pitching. And so I keep looking at comedy as a way to inspire me for presentations. And almost like as a model, not that I’m going to be a comedian in any way, shape, or form. But I think the way they learn comedy is something that advertising people could really study because that storytelling aspect is really held true on the comedy side and bringing that through, and I love that about comedy.

Julia: When did your comedian research start?

Kelly: Probably during quarantine. Having all these moments like, oh my gosh, they’re just telling a story from start to finish. And it was just this aha moment, like, okay, that’s how I need to do it. And the other thing that I’ve learned over the years, and I’m sure you’ve learned this already, is that there used to be a formula about — okay, first we talk about ourselves, then what’s our process, introduce them going around the room. What’s their expertise? What’s their case studies, and then we talk about you.

Julia: Yeah, flip that around.

Kelly: And anytime I’ve been successful in the last couple years, it’s flipped. You’re in the room because you’ve already made the cut, right? They know who you are. You need to back it up at the end with case studies that are relevant. But a lot of that stuff is already in your RFP. So, you need to focus 75% of what you’re presenting on solving their problem. So that’s something that I’ve definitely changed over the years.

Julia: Agreed. And at one point when I started doing new business proposals, these proposals are 30 pages of intro on the agency before anything is even addressed about the client, their issue or their challenge. And so, I changed it up.

Kelly: Yeah.

Julia: I’m not down for that. It doesn’t make any sense. How does this turn on the client? You know, they want to hear about themselves. Not in a selfish way, but it’s just the way psychology works.

Kelly: Well, the only thing that’s interesting is, you have certain people in the room, right, and you need to acknowledge everyone that’s in the room. And one thing you need to know up front is who’s going to be in the meeting? So, for example, can you get a list of all the names? Can you research them ahead of time, see who they are? If you know, for example, there’s going to be all women, and you bring a team of men, that’s probably not a smart idea. And vice versa. So, making sure that you’re paying attention to everyone. And of course, everyone wants to pay special attention to the CEO or the decision maker, but the CEO may or may not be the decision maker. And I’ve been in a situation where the CEO is completely and utterly disinterested, and texting the whole time. And so, I’ve changed tactics in the middle of a presentation just to get their attention.

Julia: Yeah, you have to read the room.

Kelly: And that’s important, because you want to make sure that you’ve made some sort of connection with them so that they’re interested, and they care about what you have to say.

Julia: A challenge sometimes… And, I also thought about pitching advice for newbies to the industry, right. So, I think a lot of the reason why I was always so intimidated by new business in general when I was new to the industry, a couple years of experience under my belt, was like, Oh, my gosh, I’m just new, I don’t know, I don’t have all this experience, I don’t have the war stories. And the older voices in the room should speak more. But there are lots of ways to be a newbie and be involved in new business. I think one of the hugest things is to offer really fresh and new ideas. I always felt that’s what I was looked to for — what’s out there that’s hip, what’s new, what are the trends. And that’s where I could really shine. And then if anything of that got incorporated — and what I did not do was fight for the opportunity to actually present during the pitch, because if you have just two experienced people pitching and speaking for most of the presentation, it becomes droll, or it can become — and it doesn’t really show off the team. As an experienced person, I want to show that we have a range and that newer, fresher, younger voices are equally as important as experienced voices when it comes to serving a client and solving their problem in both experienced and then new ways.

Kelly: One of the challenges with that, which was another point that I was going to make is — I’ve been to pitches where we brought eight or 10 people. And it’s ridiculous. I mean, you don’t want to have more people than the client brings in. And the other rule that Rob Whittle, the CEO of Williams Whittle always says is “no potted plants.” So, everyone has to have a role, you can’t just come to the pitch without having some sort of role. So, I tend to minimize the people that come over the last couple years because of that reason, because it ends up getting overwhelming and you know, the client’s on one side, and you’re all the way across the other side, and there’s too many of you and you don’t know where to focus. And so, making sure that you bring the right people to the pitch is extremely important.

Julia: Yeah, agreed.

Kelly: And then of course, if you are presenting creative, which if it’s unsolicited you should not, but if you are presenting past creative or case studies, try to get the creatives to present the creative. The creatives are the best at actually presenting as they provide the most drama, especially because of their concepts, and making sure that that’s their time to shine.

Julia: I mean, who to bring to a pitch is definitely a strategic decision, because you want the right people. And again, also if you can do research on who’s going to be in the room — and it’s really hard — but trying to figure out who is really going to have the best connection with them. Usually it is your new business person, that’s definitely in the room. And they should be the person that can read people and make connections. But you never know.

Kelly: I’ve had new business people who have sales experience, but no advertising experience. So, there’s no angle there, they rely on us to come up with solving the problem. And that’s a challenge at that point. What are they there for, other than making the introduction?

Julia: Yeah, that’s a challenge. And then you also brought up one thing about rehearsing. I have always asked people to prepare a script, even if they’re not going to read from the script. Just the act of organizing their thoughts on paper made me personally feel so much more confident that we were at least set up for success from my point of view. Like I agree, having someone winging it can work 50% of the time, and then cannot work 50% of the time.

Kelly: Also, you also have to give notes to your CEO who’s going to be there. Because frequently they may not want to prepare. Which is fine, they’re usually quite good at winging it. But that’s where it’s important. You have a communications audit, and you’ve done that for every single pitch. So, who’s pitching? What do they do? Why do they do it? Why is it important? All that stuff, so you understand the basics. So, they’re educated before getting into the room and have some insight that they can add that is related to past experience. So, prepping your CEO is a huge part of pitching as well.

Julia: And again, someone who’s new to the industry can be that person that takes all the notes and prepares it, and perhaps that person at least gives them all the background that they need to know.

Kelly: I think one of the last things that I wanted to mention, which is an obvious one but not always done, is ask for the business at the end. It demonstrates you want the business. We’re here to earn your business. And we’re excited about the category, we’re excited about your products, we’re excited about your services, and here’s why. And we hope to have the opportunity to be your agency.

Julia: And to piggyback on that, to follow up, and to keep tabs on it and don’t just sound or come across as ungrateful for the opportunity or whatever.

Kelly: And also, if you don’t win, to ask those questions as to why not, because you need to know so you can do things better. And many clients are very hesitant to give that feedback.

Julia: Yeah, very hesitant. It only happens I would say one out of every 10 times will actually get real feedback.

Kelly: It’s tough. Yeah. And disappointing.

Kelly: But when you do get it, it’s sometimes quite a surprise of something that’s happened, or the way people have interacted with each other that you didn’t realize. And then they noticed how those interactions happened. And then that really kind of gives you something to work on.

Julia: Agreed. So, I want to also give a couple of pieces of advice to go along with that. That I actually pulled from a presentation that I was an audience member of. One of the big national ad firms was giving this presentation. And they kind of boiled down their pitching advice. And there were a couple of things that I thought were really good. I went back to this because I was like, ooh, this presentation that I saw five and a half years ago, I still remember it. And two of the things that I loved that they said about their advice afterwards was one, the client just might be smart.

Kelly: Oh, that hurts.

Julia: I think a lot of us go into pitching like, oh, we are smart. And we are going to give them the magic pill to solve their pain point, right. And sometimes, we need to consider that the client really is just that smart. Give them the credit, and build out the dream campaign or whatever it is as a solution. Okay, that doesn’t work every time. But I thought for this case study they were giving it totally was an insight. And I thought that was really smart, because I have definitely worked on a couple of pieces of business where the client really was super smart and knew exactly the insight they wanted to drive towards.

Kelly: Well, and you also have to kind of skate that line with your expertise, intelligence and not acting like you’re the smartest person in the room because they know their business better than you do.

Julia: Agreed. So that gray area… And then the last one we both kind of already mentioned was the gotcha insight. And sometimes that’s just like a gut feeling. Sometimes you don’t really know without a doubt what it is…

Kelly: I want to talk about that, because that, to me is the most fun part about the pitching process. I feel like, it depends on how much time you have. So, usually, maybe it’s two weeks if that, that you have time to prepare. So, I feel like the first couple of days, I’m swimming, I’m dog paddling, I’m reaching for air trying to figure it out — what’s my idea?

And I’m learning…

Julia: Trying to make sense of it all.

Kelly: And then all of a sudden, it becomes clear to me, and it’s something that just comes out of the blue when I’m not at work, when I’m doing something different, or in a conversation collaborating with people — and this is the approach. And so that’s the hard part of it, trying to grab towards that area. One of the things that in the last couple years I’ve been seeing a lot of pitches for — can we move into the storytelling?

Julia: Let’s do it. It’s time.

Kelly: So, in the last couple years, I’ve seen a lot of pitches for branding, and rebrands. And in the course of maybe six months, I got some interesting questions because they usually give you a list of questions that you need to answer as part of the pitch. So, one of the questions that I had in the last couple years was “what is a brand?” Another one of the questions was “why is branding important?” And then another one of the RFPs that I got — this is going to tell a story in a moment.

Back to my comedic storytelling idea — one client asked for, we want a brand architecture. They listed all the things that they wanted, and they wanted a brand architecture, but they only had one brand. So, they clearly didn’t understand what a brand architecture was. And so, I sat down with our creative director, and in the course of three pitches in a very short six-week period, we came up with these graphics. And the first graphic was answering the question, “what is a brand?” And really what we came up with — it’s on our website blog, I wrote about it — but we had this idea of the brand being the sun, and your customers kind of standing there on earth and looking out to the sun. And we believe your brand is how your customer perceives you. It’s an initial feeling, it’s a gut reaction. And it’s the center of the universe. So we had the sun, and then we had the earth. And that was “what is a brand.” And that evolved into “what is branding.” And we had the whole solar system with eight rings around the sun. And at the center is the sun, which is your brand. And then you have brand essence, and brand positioning and brand personality and brand identity, strategy, brand equity. And then we go through and explain each of these concepts as part of the universe, the branding universe.

And so, people really get an understanding of what all the brand terms mean. And that leads into the next slide, which is “why is branding important?” And so, we created this set of three slides that really tells the story of branding and what we are. After you talk about what is a brand, it’s really a natural way to talk about what are the brand perceptions about your particular brand. And that’s when we bring in some of those insights. Because obviously, you’re always looking for those insights — what are customers saying. And people do it through looking at social media or listening tools, or Yelp reviews, or Glassdoor, etc. And one of the pitches that I worked on, I happened to know two different customers of that particular client. And I was able to pick up the phone and call the customers to get the insights directly and include those in the pitch.

And it was kind of like an aha moment for the clients and things that they hadn’t heard before. Some of them are hard to hear. But I think in terms of putting the concept that you’re working on in a framework that’s easy to understand, because people do get very confused about the various marketing terms. And so that’s one of the strategies that I’ve used in the last couple years. It’s really to dumb it down. And so again, my branding explanation is as if branding is in space, and explaining planets in relationship to each other, and how they relate. And that’s helped a lot of clients that we pitch, explain the process and why it’s important. That’s one of the stories that I’ve used in the past. And another way to gain entry into explaining what your perceptions are as part of that.

Julia: It’s interesting, would you say that it has been a successful tool?

Kelly: It definitely has. And it’s funny, because I got asked those questions. Now, I’ve been asked those questions multiple times. So, it came out of client questions that I was asked, and I want to continue to build on it and turn it into something different, but it kind of evolved into a bigger story. But yes, it’s absolutely been helpful for us.

Julia: Well, one idea that I have, or something that we did with a client — and really the idea came from an actual client, something we did, and then turned into a new business idea — and that is creating a war room.

Kelly: Oh, yes. Love the war room.

Julia: And so, for a client we had one year, just so much going on, so much like just really an amazing groundswell of support in terms of marketing, development, comms. And the client was like, how do we organize all this? How do we make sense of it? And so, with them, we created this amazing war room, and there was just stuff all over the walls, where we were able to just visualize all these components coming together. And it makes such a great idea for a new business pitch, because it kind of creates this zone. But anyone, even if you’re doing it by yourself, I normally pitch by myself these days. So even creating that space creates the energy, but you need everyone to focus on to really put their best foot forward in whatever they’re doing for that pitch — creating ideas, writing particular sections of a written document, coming up with ideas for pitches or whatever. I just think the energy is really what can make a pitch just feel different. Because if people are really dialed in and plugged in and invested, it sometimes really makes the difference. Like once you get to that client, whether it’s in the form of a written proposal, or an in-person pitch. And again, this is something that literally anyone on the team can facilitate, creating a war room. So anyways, I love that idea.

Kelly: Yeah, it’s also when you have everything up on a wall, it might give you a different way to associate things versus in a document because you’re looking at different things, and you’re standing back and other people are looking at it. I’m a big True Crime aficionado. And so, it’s almost like putting the suspects on the wall and you’re linking the string, and coming up with how are you analyzing that particular thing. Which kind of leads me to another idea that we did for a transportation client years and years ago. And there wasn’t necessarily a problem to solve. It was a client that we had to repitch as part of a process — every many years you had to repitch — and we were the incumbent and they were celebrating their 25th anniversary. So it was kind of really a time for introspection — where have you been the last 25 years? And we had a hard time coming up with that one thing. And so, what we did is, one of the things that particular transportation company was focused on is innovation. They had electric buses, and they were using solar and all sorts of really interesting innovative things. And so, what we did is we built some brand pillars for them for the next 25 years. And we took those brand pillars and we put them onto like a little Rubik’s Cube. And we wrote each of these brand pillars on a different side of the Rubik’s Cube, like innovation, or responsiveness or safety or something. And we had these Rubik’s cubes that we gave each of the key players for them to remember where they’re going to go for the next 25 years. And they loved it. And that’s something small and creative. But that’s just kind of another way for you to look at what is behind what a company is doing. And those brand pillars are really important. They’re beyond — you don’t promote those brand pillars necessarily in advertising. But they’re something that really is to the heart of what the client represents, and how they’re positioned. And so sometimes those are the things that can be an insight that you can pull out for them.

Julia: I’m totally stealing that idea. For a pitch that I’m a part of in two weeks. It is exactly what you described. Thank you for the idea.

Kelly: And let me know how it goes.

Julia: One of the cool ideas that we did for a controversial pitch — we needed to stand out. And everyone is going to come with a PowerPoint and put it up on a screen. And I was like, how do we do it more old school? And so, we literally brought in a foam board that was like 15 feet long. And put it on several easels. And then each point that we made, we pinned up with just a push pin. And obviously each slide, quote unquote, was a piece of paper. And it forced us to keep it so simple, right? Because if you’re just placing an eight and a half by 11, you can’t put five sentences on that, it would just be too small. And I really loved that because I felt like that was a pre-Pinterest idea.

I just love bringing in old school. I love marrying new school with old school in pitches, because I personally feel like it all has a place for every client, even if you’re talking about social media and all of these digital tools these days. There is a place for old school somewhere, even if it’s just like a gimmick. People said, oh, that board is so gimmicky, but it was just something that was different that didn’t hurt us, but definitely helped us be memorable. Okay, any other stories? Because I actually had a great way to wrap this up. And I forgot about it, literally. So, think about it again.

Kelly: Well, I think going back to your idea about old school, I think the old school idea that we’ve been doing since the 80s is creating a video and going to customers and getting customer testimonials. Tried and true ideas. And then the other old school idea is having your agency experience that particular client. And I’m sure every ad agency in Washington DC can tell a story about pitching Metro.

Julia: There’s a couple of clients and one of them is WMATA.

Kelly: Yes. You’ve got your pictures taken on the metro, here I am on the bus. And here I am. So, you got to take something new there. But that’s definitely some old school ideas. I’ve done fun things like creating a rock song for somebody.

Julia: I did one of those too.

Kelly: We’ve done multiple songs; songs have been a big thing. And we’ve actually sang the song and another one we had the rock band sing the song. So that was fun. Another fun thing that we did for another transportation client is we created a train. This was for one of the Amtrak clients that I pitched, I won’t say which one, because there’s so many of them. And inside the bus that we had, little stick figures with our faces on them on popsicle sticks and so they would sit inside the windows. So, each of you have your face and they would remember you based on where you sat in the train and then you’d grab your stick as you were about to speak to say “Here I am on the train.” Here’s my idea. Creativity knows no bounds. When you come up with something, it must be memorable. How are they memorable? Do they have personality? Do they have creativity? I’ll give you one of my last fun ones. It’s actually not fun. It was a surprise. You know, I think a lot of times you get very impassioned when you’re pitching, right? And you get 100% really excited, especially when it’s a nonprofit idea.

Julia: I get super invested.

Kelly: Sometimes it really works. And I had on two separate occasions, years ago, not recently, it worked so well, that I made the client cry.

Julia: Oh, that’s the Holy Grail.

Kelly: And so, the CEO kept saying, “Okay Kelly, your goal is to make them cry.” And then we know we’ve made it, because then they get so excited because they want to be able to execute it. And especially if you can do that in creative or something that’s very moving. And in the nonprofit world, that’s not that hard. In fact, real clients that we worked with, that was their goal — if you present me a concept, it must make me cry. If it doesn’t make me cry, it’s not approved. So that’s an interesting, fun way of looking at things. If your goal is to make them cry, then you know, it’s taking your presentation skills to a whole other level.

Julia: Although I was never the one to make them cry. It was always someone else on the team. I can’t imagine if I actually made them cry, I’d probably get really uncomfortable. Like, oh my gosh, I just want to give you a hug now.

Kelly: Absolutely. So, a lot of the stories I can’t really tell because you can’t say who the clients were. So, those are kind of generic.

Julia: Well, the one thing that I wanted to say is, I do definitely get super invested. And I remember every detail of every loss. And the losses really stick with me forever. That’s the reality of our business. If you’re a person who is a sore loser, this is not the business for you. You are most likely never going to get the real feedback you need to make adjustments. And so, you just have to live with that. And hope for the best and not burn your bridges if it doesn’t go your way. But I’ve always seen a loss as an opportunity to learn, to file it away with the good ideas that I loved. And…

Kelly: Keep it moving. That’s wonderful advice. And I’m just going to add on to it a funny note, which was…

Julia: No add ons. Oh, sorry. I’m just kidding. This is a podcast.

Kelly: 2018 and 2019 were a little bit of crazy years, because they were years that every single pitch that we did, there were certain pitches that we thought we were not going to win. And there were certain pitches that we did that we thought for sure we’d win, that we lost. And everything came out backwards. Everything we thought we were gonna win, we lost. Everything we thought we were gonna lose, we won. And I felt like it was a really kind of a precursor to 2020. But then it all kind of went upside down. And here we are. And my new business radar was off because sometimes you’ve got the gut feeling you’ve made it. And maybe you made it but there’s so many other things that come into play as to why a pitch is won and lost and you’re obviously not aware of all of them. But hopefully some of the ideas that we shared today will be helpful and the personal stories might be a little entertaining.

Julia: Well with that we will see you in the next episode of Two Marketing Moms. Wonderful. Bye bye. You can learn more about us and follow us on social at TwoMarketingMoms.com. Please also smash that subscribe button or leave us a review. We want to talk about what matters so please give us your feedback. Until next time.