Transitions as Turning Points

Episode Transcript

Kelly Callahan-Poe: Transitions in life can shake us up, but they can also wake us up. Welcome to the Two Marketing Moms podcast. I'm Kelly Callahan-Poe and today's episode is called Transitions as Turning Points with Meggi Rombach. Meggi knows what it's like to face major life transitions and turn them into growth. After two decades leading global teams from Procter & Gamble to UNICEF, she now helps leaders slow down, reconnect and redefine success in a more meaningful way. Welcome Meggi.

Meggi Rombach: Hi, Kelly, so nice to be on your podcast.

Kelly: I love this conversation. Let's dig in. I have a two-part question and the first question is you describe transitions as turning points rather than disruptions. What do you mean by that?

Meggi: So of course, like career transitional changes can be disruptive, but I think it's all about how we reframe it in our minds, what we tell ourselves about it. And that's why I prefer to look at them at turning points because looking back at my own career, but also seeing people I work with, we change every decade or so. And it's really like an adjustment of the path. It's kind of, that's just what happens naturally. So, by calling them turning points, it also normalizes the fact that careers are not just a straight line. You know, there will be moments where you're at a crossroads and where you have to decide which turn you take.

Kelly: Well, that leads me to my second question, which is, you know, what are the top transitions that women go through that become turning points in their career?

Meggi: So, I guess, depending on how much education you have, there is a moment where you stop learning or being educated and you start working. So, I guess that's one big, big turning point. And then the natural, what all people go through, I guess, know, the, you know, whether you have a family or not, then maybe at one point you, you are just also naturally you're at midlife. And that's a point I'm really curious about nowadays. And I've done a lot of research on that. There are also naturally priorities change. So, and that's maybe not limited to women, but at one point, just naturally our interests evolve and that also often connects with the family. So, the kids might become more independent. They might become bigger. They might even leave the house at that point. Our parents might get older. So, there's many elements in our environment that influences also our work life that then can impact our trajectories. In my personal case, I had some big turning points and I don't know if they were so much influenced by life stages. They were also impacted by disruptions such as burnout. So, I guess it's a combination of both. And then depending on your life stage, you maybe make sense of it in a different way.

Kelly: Well, let's dig into your life change first in terms of burnout. Can you talk a little bit about how that changed your career trajectory?

Meggi: I am really glad you're asking because I was thinking that could be a perfect example to illustrate what I was just saying, because in fact I had two. So, the first I had over 10, 15 years ago. And at that time, I was working at Procter & Gamble. So big, ambitious, high performing marketing career with a lot of pressure. And I got to a point where it was just too much and it was a lot, had a lot to do with my direct manager. I mean, he was a nice person, but there was just a huge personality clash. I was probably lacking self-confidence. So, at that point in time, which was in my mid-thirties, the way I made sense out of that burnout was very different than my second one, which was not so long ago. So, at that time I took that as an opportunity to first of all, I went on a holiday just with friends. And in fact, I put something on Facebook, like, I'm really bad or whatever. And then a good old friend I hadn't seen in a decade or so replied, what's going on? And he was living in Vancouver. And basically, I just jumped on a plane, and I was just hanging out with him for two weeks because he knew me before I even started working. So, I needed to reconnect with somebody who knew me before I became the marketing superstar. So, that's how I dealt with it at the time. And then end of 2023, I had another burnout. It was less severe because I guess I read the signals earlier, but now I'm making sense of it in a different way. I mean, now I really want to use that as an opportunity to go into entrepreneurial life, to maybe build a portfolio career. So, I think also at the life stage you're in will then influence how you use those moments that shake you up and which path you take. So today I'm retaking a different path than what I took over 15 years ago.

Kelly: I can relate. I've been through kind of that late stage or later stage career change myself and burnout earlier in life. But I think it's one of those things where you know it when you see it. And for me, my dad had dementia over the last five years. And in his last year of life, there was a big focus on caregiving and transitioning him into memory care. And five weeks later, he passed. And funeral planning, and then resettling my mother in a new place, relocating her and getting her adjusted to a new life. For me, that shook me up in a big way last year in such a way that it wasn't about his death as much as it was about the funeral. And the funeral was a point in time where you realize it wasn't about his career. He had a fantastic career. It was really about the impact that he had on his family. And so that stops you and makes you realize, you go to plenty of funerals in your life, but what people say is the most important. And then you stop and go, okay, wait a minute. Am I in the right space in life? Am I in a place where if something happened to me, would these same things be said about me or not? And so, for me, I made a change in my life because of that, because it had such a big profound impact on me. And so, I've been there, and I know how important it is to go through these life changes. So, can you talk a little bit more about kind of moving through the transitions? Do you just let yourself go through it? What is the process that you take to get through these transitions?

Meggi: Sure, before I get there, just first really my deep condolences. I mean, that sounds like a really hard ride. And it also reminded me of a tool that is used in coaching quite a lot where people are encouraged to think about your 85-year-old self, hopefully still alive. But you know, what would you regret? And I think that's also a good exercise to really think, as you said, often it's at those moments towards end of the life where you really think, okay, did it really matter to push the career so hard or was it more the family and the friends or what are the things I want to be proud of at that point in life and what do I need to change to get there? So that probably also connects with your question which what are the tools I'm using or suggesting to people? I think one tool I found incredibly useful is, had also to do with awareness. There's a book, it's extremely powerful, it's called Transition written by William Bridges. And he, you know the book? Cool. So, what I, the model he uses is actually quite simple. So, what he talks about is to make a change and go through a transition. First, you need to celebrate or acknowledge the ending. So, there's always something ending. It's really important to do that intentionally and consciously. And then there is a neutral zone and that's a zone that's often messy. And that's where we are often try to rush through because we just want to do the next new thing. But what's really important is to spend enough time in the messy middle, in this neutral zone. And only then you can truly have a new beginning. So, when I'm working with people through these, first I make them aware of this process. And then I also encourage them, first of all, to close something really intentionally. So, I recently lost my job at the Red Cross after 13 years, which also was quite convenient because I think I was ready for something else. But having a proper celebration for me was extremely important because I just wanted to close this chapter with my colleagues. It was a great time, you know, to make it really intentional to say, okay, there's something ending and we have to somehow close that loop before we can open a new one. And I'm still myself full in the messy middle, but I'm consciously there and I'm exploring many things. I have many ideas where I'd like to take it. I'm already working with leaders, supporting them through those transitions. But my ideas are much bigger. So, I'd like to build a portfolio career where coaching is just one part of it. So that's not all worked out yet, but I'm okay with that. You know, I think being aware of that messy middle and that's actually where innovation happens, where all the good things will happen. So, one recommendation I always give is to not rush through it, to embrace it. And then once you're long enough in that messy middle, things will start emerging, things will start becoming clearer and then you can more intentionally move to something new.

Kelly: What is the biggest mindset shift that helped you move through burnout to be more intentional?

Meggi: I'm a big fan of psychotherapy now because both times during the first burnout, I saw somebody very shortly, but I felt like I managed. I walked out of it. I'm very perseverant and very positive, even so positive mindset. I think that's really natural to me. Positive mindset and gratitude. For me, that just so happens part of who I am, but if it's not part of who you are, who maybe some of the listeners, maybe it's a bit harder for them to embrace that. I think that's just good practices to embrace. Even in the midst of burnout, there's always something that is still okay. I mean, maybe in some rare cases, really everything is horrible, but in most cases, there's always something small you can appreciate and be grateful for. And that just really helps to move. So that's one. And then really dig deeper, because I think I now found the moment in my youth that triggered both burnouts and it had to do with self-confidence. Cause during the second one, the same pattern, male boss, and I knew intuitively had nothing to do with my dad. Male boss and my male boss are wonderful. He told me, you have a self-confidence issue. And I was like, I don't want to hear this. This is not true. So, I went digging and actually I think I could track it back to a moment in my youth at my horse-riding stable, where I felt I was really unfairly treated by my horse-riding instructor. And from that moment on, I took on a coping mechanism to overcompensate by over delivering and working even harder to just prove that I'm reliable in all of this. And so, working with a psychologist, she actually challenged me to go back and see my horse-riding instructor after 30 years. So, I was not really motivated to do that. I was maybe; I was kind of procrastinating. I actually wanted to go back to the stable. Yes. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. I mean, no, no. She was like, is he still alive? Is the stable still there? I mean, this is like 30 years later, right? I was like, yes. And she's like, go there. I was like, Jesus, imagine.

Kelly: In real life? I thought you meant in your head. In real life?

Meggi: Exactly. I went, you know, so because part of me, I wanted to go back there for a long time because at that time I was every day at the stable. He was almost like my second dad. So, this was an important person in my life. But then this thing happened and I just felt that was really unfair. I was 15. So also, you know, I mean, how responsible I was 15. So, I went back at Easter this year. And it was just amazing. I mean, we didn't talk about what happened 30 years ago, but he recognized me. He remembered some of my friends from back in the days. We had a chat and, and I don't know. I believe that we solved my issue and I, that I won't have another burnout, at least not for that reason. Time will show, but you know, often these things run really deep, and they can be traced back to quite early in our lives. And finding those moments and releasing them can be extremely powerful.

Kelly: That was very brave of you. I don't know that I would have taken that step, my goodness. So, when you and I talked earlier, you talked a little bit about mindfulness, and you talked about the four-hour work week. Can you elaborate on those?

Meggi: Sure, yes. So that's maybe a bit more practical than psychology. So, mindfulness and four-hour work week. So first, four-hour work week is an amazing book I've come across by Tim Ferriss, and it's provocatively called the four-hour work week, which really, he shares ideas how it would look like to only work four hours but still earn sufficiently to have the lifestyle you want. So, he coined the term of lifestyle design. And part of the lifestyle design is to work backwards from what you want to have, and do, and then see what it actually costs you to have that. So that's just a really powerful concept that I came across pretty early in my life. I don't know if that actually helped me with the burnout, but it helped me with my all my career transitions because it helped me to be very clear to know what is really key to me where I would like to go. And then I could take decisions accordingly. The bit that helped me even more with burnout is mindfulness. So, I got into mindfulness seven years ago, I learned about mindfulness at work, and it was one of those nice to have things that I do one day and then I never did it. So, over the last year, after the second burnout, I took a mindfulness-based stress reduction program, like the eight weeks course where you meditate 20 minutes a day, but also you learn not just the practice of meditation, but also all the principles that go with it. So that was already extremely helpful. And that was probably more on the stress reduction side. It also Gratitude is a big part of mindfulness practice. Intentions rather than goals. There's a lot to be said there. And then I did another course that particularly for listeners that might be, you know, still ambitious high performance out there and struggling with balance and burnout. It was a course that built on the first one. It was called Flow at Work. And basically, it took Mindfulness practice. So, we were still asked to meditate. It was shorter because it was for busy people. So was maybe 12 minutes a day or even just five minutes a day. Just find a moment to calm your brain, to trigger the state of flow. You know, this concept that this gentleman with the beautiful Czech name.

Kelly: Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi.

Meggi: Yes, well done. See, I tried to train myself to pronounce the name. I can't, but the concept is really powerful. So, with mindfulness or with these moments of consciously really slowing down your brain, you can then trigger a state of flow almost intentionally. And then suddenly you're not only talking stress reduction, but you're also talking productivity and efficiency. And it's just such a powerful tool. Now I'm preaching to everybody about mindfulness because, know, it doesn't need to be 30 minutes a day. If you got into the habit, you could even find two, three minutes. You're just more conscious about it. You just stop. You become aware. You take a few breaths and off you go. And that just helps tremendously. It helps everyday practice. And it certainly helps with burnout and other challenges related to work life balance.

Kelly: You talk about life as a journey and this concept of Everest and base camp. Can you talk a little bit about that? Because that really resonated when we chatted before.

Meggi: So, in my coaching or channeling, and that's just me, I like to always try to draw analogies to either sports or, you know, often compared to horse riding or marathon running, because that's what I'm passionate about, but also that would often resonate with people. So, the more recent one I'm using is the analogy of Everest Base Camp. So, when I talk about that, first of all, I mean, Everest Basecamp is at over 4,000 meters altitude. So already getting to base camp is a major achievement. So I compare Everest Basecamp with mid top management, not C-level, but you know, like a good career push, like the ambitious people think you were one, I was one, you know, like the level that you can reach, that many of us can reach, but still it's a lot of pressure and you're fairly high up. And then once you're at base camp, you have basically three directions to take from there. You want to summit. So, then you need different tools. You know, if you really want to go all the way to C-level, you need an oxygen mask, you need more stamina, the air is going to be really thin up there. So, you also have to think how long you can actually stay up there. You just want to have a better life at Basecamp. So that's the more question of setting better boundaries of owning your space better. So, so that's a whole set of things you could do at a fairly high senior level. But once you're more experienced, maybe you're hitting mid-life, so also your priority change, you're more ready to really put your grounds in the rule and claim your space and set your boundaries more clearly. And then the third option is to take a different path. You just say like, okay, this has been great. I like climbing and now I go down, I climb another mountain. Maybe I go sailing instead. So, you really look at a completely different career path. And I'm using this analogy because it's very visual and people can connect with it to explain those options that I see many people start facing in their late, I don't know, late forties, maybe even earlier, depending on how quickly you moved up to base camp. And when you got to the point that you're considering other options.

Kelly: You know, it's funny, my social media manager and I were talking about transitions for another podcast, and we were talking about beyond kind of like the mid middle age career path change into kind of the late-stage career. And what are the visuals and images that come up when you think about your late-stage career. And so, the first image that she came up with was a finish line. And I said, no, no, no, no, no, we're not there yet. So, she came up with another visual and it was a person's climbing stairs. And I said, no, no, no, that's not right either. We're not doing stairway to heaven yet. So, I went and I thought really hard, know, what, because I feel like I'm moving into this space. What is the image that best represents this late-stage career? And, and I thought of a tree with roots and the roots really represents legacy. So, I thought that was a more beautiful image to think about, than necessarily climbing a mountain because you are really trying to dig deep into what do you want to leave behind. And that's important as you get older and you make those decisions.

Meggi: I like the tree and when you're talking about that, what for me just came up with gardening, you know, like this beautiful garden where you just choose whatever you want to plant. And yes, maybe you plant a tree that will last forever, but maybe you just plant some beautiful flowers, but it's, it's calmer. It's more chilled. You know, I don't know. That was at least the image that popped into my head.

Kelly: Any final thoughts about transitions in life that are worth mentioning?

Meggi: Well, as I'm preaching all about mindfulness, it's really, you know, take these things. I would encourage all the listeners to take this seriously before hitting a burnout. And maybe sometimes we cannot avoid, you know, sometimes we have to hit the wall to be woken up. But when that happens, these tools, they will also help us to navigate through it. And it'll make it a little bit easier. And the other bit is really around the whole notion of played by your rules, like live it by your own script, you know, to encourage people to dare to let go of all the shoulds and the societal expectations and just really think like, okay, what is this tree you really want to plant or the garden you really want to plant and then just go for it.

Kelly: Beautiful. Well, thank you for joining me today, Meggi. We'll find her contact information on twomarketingmoms.com and don't forget to subscribe and share and thanks for joining.

Meggi: My pleasure, bye.