From Ad Agency to Entrepreneur…How and When?

Episode Transcript

Julia: Welcome to the Two Marketing Moms Podcast. Today I have a very special guest, Eurah Lee, and her company is Kami Social Media Agency. And just let me tell you a little about her before we get into it. She is an award-winning producer and co-founder of her agency. Throughout her career, she’s worked with ad agencies and production companies, creating videos and digital campaigns for a variety of brands like NARS, American Foundation for Suicide Prevention, and Etat Libre d’Orange. She worked her way up from a production assistant to producer in two restless years, which we will talk about. And whether she is producing commercials, animated videos, or digital ads, her concepts always revolve around one question: how can we make the viewer feel something? She believes social and commercial content should be designed to inspire engagement with one another. And lastly, she has always followed one supreme rule throughout her career — the seven P’s of production (which I also love): prior proper planning prevents piss poor production, from Rosemary Reed, her first boss.

So I feel like you and I were destined to meet. We found each other through the Freelancing Females group on Facebook, which honestly is like this amazing group of women that are there to support each other. It’s just really such a magical group. So you pitched me — I loved your pitch deck. I was like, this girl, you and your partner, you got it. So when we met, we realized we grew up in the same town. And we actually went to the same high school, even though you went there a few years apart. It’s also very cool that you started your career at Double R in DC, where I’m located, and then you moved to NYC to get the experience in one of the, if not the biggest, advertising hubs in the world. So, let’s start from the beginning, even though I have so many questions for you.

I noticed you had the most amazing intern experience. And this is one of the things we haven’t talked about too much on the podcast, but it’s so important, because I also did too. Talk about internships — how did you seek those out? What impact did they have? Let’s start there.

Eurah: Okay, first of all, I just want to start off with saying that mentorship is so freaking important. Whether it is a high school mentor, or wherever you can find guidance, I really think that that is where I got my first start. And I had a really great mentor when I was in high school. I was a really bad high school student. I got expelled from high school — I had weed in my car. And I got expelled. So I luckily had a very great mentor at the time, who knew that I had potential even though I was going through this rebellious phase, and he kind of guided me all the way throughout half of my college career too. So when I got into college, when I got to VCU, my mentor really made sure that I knew — meeting my professors on the very first day of school, sitting on the first row of the big lecture classes, introducing myself afterwards. Even though they seem very, you know, class pet-ish, it really boosted my mentality to who I want to become and who I want to be seen as. And I noticed that by doing things like those little things — introducing yourself, having confidence as a student — it really helped shape my career, because then I felt confident enough to go out and network. So I think I learned at an early age that networking was honestly the number one thing to getting a job, to excelling in your career. And when I was in college, I was studying broadcast journalism. I thought that I wanted to be a news reporter, and I went into that and it was like, this is just sad stories and heartbreak, and I was like, I’m not about that. I don’t want to live in a depressed state of mind and always have to chase stories.

One time I was doing a package story on an environmental group at my school and I went with them to this workshop at William and Mary. They had this big music, hip hop producer come and speak. And his name was Maleek Yousef, and he actually started out with Kanye West back in Chicago. And it was so crazy, because before he got up on stage to speak, he was getting off of a phone call. And he was like, I’m sorry, does anyone here know Korean? Because I’m talking to a Korean person, I need some help. And I’m Korean. So I just immediately raised my hand and he was like, okay, can you come talk to me after the speech? And there’s like hundreds of students around. So afterwards, I made my way over to him. And I helped him translate this phone call. And afterwards, he was like, you know, I really like you. You’re really smart. Do you want an internship with me? And I was like, what the hell? Are you serious? So I followed up, and I kept pushing, because my mentor had shaped me to keep pushing and be aggressive.

So then I got the internship in LA and it actually turned into one of the worst and best internships of my life. It was in the LA and Hollywood and music industry, entertainment, fashion — I was just thrown into that as a naïve college person. And this world, this industry, is exactly what it seems like on TV. And I was like, I don’t want anything to do with this. So that’s kind of how I got my foot into the internship world. But although it was one of the most eye-opening internship experiences for me — seeing what this Hollywood life is really like, but also being thrown into producing, like I was helping them with a fashion shoot and booking fashion shows in New York and LA as a 20-year-old, dealing with $50,000 budgets, and I had no idea what I was doing. But I think I learned to just do it. It taught me the hustle. And from then I just had the confidence when I came back. And I was like, I could do whatever I want. So yeah, I was just dragged through the Hollywood mud and came back to DC, finished school, and then got a job. And I knew from that I was like, I don’t ever want to work in LA again.

Julia: Well, the thing is, people don’t think about this. They don’t think about internships in this way. It’s supposed to teach you also what you don’t want to do. It’s like a little experiment, which is so perfect. Who wants to truly experiment once they’ve graduated college? I mean, you can, it’s just the stakes are higher. I was always going after internships in a very narrow lane. Like, this is what I want to do. I almost feel like, oh, what if I had just done something different and learned what I didn’t want to do? That is just as valuable.

Eurah: I think everyone thinks of internships as like, if you had a bad internship, oh, that was a bad experience. And it’s like, well, what did you learn from it? What do you never want to do again? And now you have a better outlook on your road ahead. My high school mentor told me this one phrase that I will never forget. And he was like, sometimes in life, we go through speed bumps, and speed bumps help you slow down, but they also help you prepare for the road ahead.

Julia: Let’s just jump into the more present-day things. So when I was at GW for college, I interviewed with Ogilvy New York, and I was thinking, oh, I got to go to New York, because that’s where advertising is. And I had an interview. I didn’t get the job. But I started to really think about what does moving to New York mean? And how would that be different for me? And I had an internship, a great internship here that I loved, and I was like, I’m gonna stay here. But I feel like so many people are wrestling with this same thing. Like, what’s the difference between the two markets? What do you like about DC? What made you want to move to NYC? I feel like this is something that a lot of people have on their minds.

Eurah: DC, I think, is the perfect start for any career. It’s a smaller market for sure. So whatever industry you’re going into, whether it’s marketing or cybersecurity — it’s kind of like you are the expert in that field, right? And everyone else around you in the DC market will trust you because you’re the expert. They don’t pretend to know what you know. But I think the biggest difference is when you get to New York, everyone thinks they know everything about marketing, or video production, or cybersecurity. It’s like, you hired us because we’re the experts, you hired us because you trust us, please just trust us. So I missed that about DC — I miss people being able to be like, “You’re hired, do your thing.” And in New York, the clients — of course, you get paid more, and the budgets are much higher, the stakes are higher, the production value was greater.

It’s a lot more fun. I don’t want to say freedom — you don’t have more freedom in the actual content itself, but you have more freedom to hire, you know, a Jaguar if you want. But people in New York think that they can do your job for you. “I know marketing too, my son owns a marketing agency, and blah. So I know that this video should be six minutes long.” It’s like, why? Why should it be six minutes long? You hired us for a reason.

I guess the main thing about the difference between DC and New York is obviously the pay gap as well. I think when I immediately got to New York, my salary doubled, and I had the same experience. It was just within a month of moving there. But the term “more money, more problems” is very true. And although I was making more, I had a lot more stress. I had no freedom in the projects that I wanted to work on. I had no freedom in my life, honestly. I was working all the time. And I think that’s also another thing about New York — there is no separation from your identity to your career. You are your career. And that is like New York rules — we come here to hustle. Hustle culture is alive and well over here. And that’s what breaks a lot of people down and a lot of people get really depressed because their entire life revolves around their career. And it wasn’t until I got let go from my job that I was able to separate from that, that I realized, wait, who am I without my career? Who am I without my title? I actually still have amazing experience! I still have all these skills. I don’t need to live my life under this agency that I work for. I think that’s something that a lot of people struggle with.

And you had something similar? I mean, when you were working at your past place — it just kind of took you a long time, and you realized that the mission wasn’t the same.

Julia: I mean, I’m not really a risk taker. And so yeah, I wrestled with what should I do. I had one vision for how I wanted to work and the type of agency I wanted to create in terms of culture and the type of people I wanted to hire. Maybe the type of work I wanted to do, maybe even the way I wanted to accomplish the work. And it was diverting so far from where I was that eventually I had no choice but to actually take the risk, decide to go out on my own. And all those experiences over that long period of time, which was far too long, did give me the confidence to do it. And it was a tough decision to make, obviously. But in the long term, it was really positive. So do you feel like going to New York was a good move?

Eurah: Yes. For sure. I don’t regret it one bit. I think that I had to take this step. Well, let me first start by saying I think if I would have stayed in DC, the creative field in DC is pretty small. Everybody kind of knows each other. Everyone fights for the same projects.

Julia: Yes. Because the big work is not plentiful. And so if you’re in the inner circle of DC agencies, you’re gonna know what other three agencies are pitching this work. It’s good and bad, right? Like, you know your competitive edge or where you’re gonna fall short, your pricing. I’m sure it’s not that way in New York.

Eurah: I mean, of course, New York has their top agencies as well — Grey, Ogilvy, other places that mainly get the really big projects. But there’s still plenty of work to go around. And I think in DC, that’s not the case. But then moving to New York, I worked on so many different brands — fashion, makeup, cars — and it was a lot of fun. But I also feel like there’s a little bit less creative freedom.

Julia: Yeah. Mo’ money, mo’ problems? Wait, so do you think that if you had gone straight to New York without having that foundation in DC, like, what’s your advice to that person? I feel like it could go either way. Kelly, my co-host, she went straight into Grey and had the most amazing experiences. But I definitely am much more of a “you” person — like, let’s get that foundation in an environment that’s not such a pressure cooker. Where you can take a little more time to learn things. And then go to that next step. So what’s your advice on that one?

Eurah: I would say start small. Yeah, like do what we did. If you can stay at home after you graduate from school, especially when it comes to savings — the only reason that I got let go from my recent job and was able to take a month off and then start this company was because I had savings. And I don’t think that would have been possible if I didn’t stay at home after I graduated from school for like a year and work at Double R and make some money and start getting some savings. And that set me up. That literally set me up for the next five years. So I think that — and also, if you start small, you get to put your hands in so many different things. If you started at a smaller company, if you start in a smaller network like DC, you can work as a production assistant, then work up to production coordinator quickly. But if you’re over at one of those bigger places, you work in a silo — you’re just doing this one little thing. And everyone’s doing this one little thing. And I don’t think you get to learn as much as you could if you were working for a smaller company.

Julia: Good advice. So are you ready for another move?

Eurah: Yes. And I will always tell someone if they’re ever thinking about moving to New York, I would literally be like, why? Why do you want to go there?

Julia: So you’ve become a jaded New Yorker now?

Eurah: Yes. I’m like, why do people like this place? I get it. Because I was totally that girl that was like, I’m a city girl. I’m a small-town girl, big dreams, go to New York, get a big paying job, be the world’s best producer ever. But then you come here and you’re like, it’s so dirty. And there’s so many people. And I swear you’ll become more lazy than ever before because you don’t want to deal with those people. You don’t want to deal with that stuff. Especially if you’re working at a high-paced job, you just want to go home and relax afterwards. So New York, I think it’s good to maybe get a year here or if you want to jump that salary, come to New York and do something. But I think that this city does a lot to your sanity as well. Even my anxiety has gone up. And I just am ready for something new. So I think that Seattle or the Pacific Northwest would really be the next move for me. Have you heard that the Pacific Northwest is such a millennial move?

Julia: No. My sister moved there. I see it on the internet all the time — Millennials are moving to the Pacific Northwest. All right, so let’s talk about your roots in production. I feel like this is a nice part of advertising work. As you were saying, if you went to go work in New York and you were in accounts, you probably would never get your hands in any type of production. And I think it’s a really cool thing to know. It’s like knowing where your food comes from — it’s understanding the whole creative process from the first time a client comes in, has a problem or a challenge to solve. And then how do you get to that creative brief and that concept, and then production and post and all that stuff? So my question for you is, how does knowing production help you in your work now? Maybe your non-production work now?

Eurah: Well, exactly what you said — as a producer, and even starting as a production assistant, you see every step of the way from concept to completion. Literally, how was this video made? And people don’t think about the crew, people don’t think about the talent, people don’t think about the location or even the food for the crew. So I really got to see that everything is done step by step. And another thing that we talked about last time is that we can’t do this stuff alone. There’s only so much that we can do by ourselves. And it really takes a team of trusted individuals who are experts in that certain thing to get this video done, to get this concept done. So I’m going to hire the best audio guy I know and let him do his job. Because I don’t know that. And that goes the same for the designer, the talent — everyone has their place in this production. And we’re all synchronized in making this one thing come to life. I think another thing that has helped me in the production world with the work that I’m doing now is interview skills — interviewing people and talking to strangers. When I was in broadcast journalism, you literally had to just ask people on the street random things and really get that answer out of them that you want to get. So when it comes to talking to new clients or current clients and they have problems, sometimes people come to you and they say, I have a problem. But I don’t really know what the problem is. I don’t know exactly how I want to do this. And they’re just so vague. So we have to consistently ask questions, questions, questions, and literally dig deep down into their brains and figure it out for them.

Julia: So true.

Eurah: That’s what we’re getting paid for — our clients don’t know what they want. So we just have to figure it out for them. And the interview skills have helped me to dig deep into what it is they actually want, what their actual mission and message is, and then step by step, using my production skills, make sure that that concept turns into tangible content that they want.

Julia: And you can now sell anything, almost, right? When you get the window into how all the pieces work together, you can more easily sell it. Because you know it inside and out.

Eurah: Yeah, sales is also a huge thing. I think that was one of the first things that my boss, my old boss, Rosemary, told us. We had a small team, it was like six people. And she told everyone, every single person on this team is in sales. And I took that so fearlessly. I really made sure that sales was such a big boost for everywhere I went. When I went to my next job at Kworq here in New York, the first thing I said was, I’m not scared of sales. I’m not scared of networking. I’m not scared to be out there and represent. That was one of the biggest things that they were like, okay, she’s about it.

Julia: Yeah — hire her! We don’t need a biz dev team. Well, in DC, where the agencies are smaller, people wear more hats. So it’s easier to forget that there are people in the agency world that have their strengths. And we need the power of the collective to create that. On the other hand, it’s great because you get your hands in things. Like, I was just an account manager, but because we had such a small team, I got to be involved in every step of the production. And it was literally stepping into a world that I never even imagined about. But it was so helpful to see how the sausage is made, I guess you can say.

All right, because I feel like you and I have connected on everything else. I want to talk about your decision to go out on your own, because I love this topic. We are living in the gig economy. We are living in a time like no other that people can go out and more easily chase their dreams and work for themselves and create that value and sell themselves. Be that hustler. There’s so many opportunities. I’m personally so grateful for it. And you and I have both done this. So it’s another thing we have in common.

I was thinking about this — I don’t like to be called a freelancer. It is a title that I own. I work for myself, I’m not owned by someone necessarily. So I’m working solo, so I could be an entrepreneur. I also like being called an agency, since I bring in collaborators on almost every engagement that I have. I like being called an entrepreneur.

So talk to me about the factors that led you to creating Kami, because I feel again like this is such a subject that people are wrestling with — should I stay? Or should I go? Should I dip my toe out there? How do you do it? Talk about your thought process and how that happened.

Eurah: Throughout my career, I’ve had many people — boyfriend, colleagues, bosses — always say, you know, one day you’re going to own your own business, or why don’t you go out and start something on your own? I think you could really do it. And I never had full confidence in myself. I would always see my previous bosses struggle with sales, struggle with finding new clients, and that scared me. I was like, I do not want to lose sleep at night.

Julia: It still scares me.

Eurah: To me that is the scariest thing — to maintain revenue and pay people. So that was honestly my biggest setback — that I didn’t want to constantly chase new clients. So when I was let go from my last agency back in September 2020, I basically went through the seven stages of grief and was like, my life is over. And what was all this for? In the middle of a pandemic?

So I went through all that stuff. And I also knew that that’s when it hit me that I was actually very depressed — that my job, all the stuff that I was working on, I did not feel connected to. And I was kind of thankful, but also thinking, what is my life? Where is it going now? Luckily, I had my best friend — she was searching for a job in the middle of a pandemic as well. She had lost her job in the HR field of a big law firm in DC. And so she was thinking, have you heard of virtual assistant companies? So she wanted to start one of those. And I was like, oh, let me help you. I have some time now. And maybe when you make your own website, you can add me on there as a marketing consultant, and I can help you.

And this whole time, she was scheming to get me on board with her to start it with her. But she knew that she had to give me some time to grieve my job and whatever. So she gave me some time. And then I think a month — I had a month of rest and relaxation and thoughts. And after a month, I was like, you know what, do you want to do this together? Let’s start this business together. But like you say that you don’t like being called a freelancer, I don’t want to be called a virtual assistant. I am more than that. So I was like, let’s turn this into a marketing agency. Let’s turn this into something that we can actually make good money on. So we formed it into a social media agency. And honestly, the only reason I was able to start this business was I had a partner — my best friend — who was able to say we can do this together. Let’s take it slow. And what do you have to lose? You have no job right now, what do you have to lose? Let’s do this. And so because I was at the time very frustrated with other agencies and working for someone else and being let go, I was very like, screw corporate, screw capitalism. So I was super fired up. And I was like, yeah, let’s start this thing. So I think that being let go from my job really gave me the push, and also having someone to hold hands with and say let’s do this together really saved me.

Julia: Yeah, I was talking to this agency business coach for people in the agency world. And he was like, a lot of people bring in partners because it is so empowering to just know that you have someone who has your back, someone who’s going to be there when you’re down, and then vice versa. You’ll figure it out. I think that’s huge.

Eurah: Yeah. There’s this other podcast called The Future with Chris Do — he’s a great graphic designer. And he has a podcast. He talked to this one guy who is an agency owner for a huge agency that is in LA, San Francisco, Seattle, and also New York. And he was talking about his experience, how he started his agency, the downfalls and all this stuff. And he said, honestly, he first started his agency by himself. And after two years, he completely burned out. He ended it, he couldn’t do it anymore. He loved it but he literally worked himself to death that he had to just close his agency. And then he was able to find three other partners. So the four of them opened up a bigger agency. And that is the agency with the four partners that has grown so much to four different cities. They get tons of projects, and they’re loving it because they’re able to work on it together. So he was like, doing it on my own was just way too rough.

Julia: You got me thinking now. Because you do everything on your own, don’t you? I mean, yeah, I have collaborators — copywriters, creative people, designers, whatever I need. But yeah, it’s lonely.

You know what, we ask when we have guests on the podcast — the ones that have been moms — how does being a mom make you better in business? And one of my answers is when you’re a mom, you just power through stuff now. That’s one thing — I have looked burnout in the face so many times in the past 12 months, and then I’m just like, okay, sleep it off, get up the next morning, keep going. And I don’t think I would have done that pre-kids. There was something about becoming a mom and having that responsibility and not being able to — I was breastfeeding my kids. There was no other person that could substitute for me. It just turned me into this person that just keeps going. So I think whenever I do get really exhausted, I just go back to that — nope, just keep going, get a good night’s rest, come back mentally fresh and just keep going.

Eurah: Yeah, I mean, I think that honestly, you probably work way harder than I do because you’re trained as a mom — that you think if you come to a fork in the road, you’re like, okay, I could either take a 20-minute nap, or I can bust this thing out. You don’t even think about those options, you’re just like, I’m just gonna go ahead and bust this thing out.

Julia: I think every life stage will bring you to a new version of yourself, right? Like, you and I both have that in common, that college experience. We both found our confidence there and learned things that got us to the next level. And then in our careers — also confidence to the next level. Because let’s be honest, most people we know in the creative industry are not going to go out and work for themselves. They are not interested in feeding the beast. They want to just do the work. And there is nothing wrong with that. People like you and I just have that — we’re just built that way.

Eurah: Yeah, there is nothing wrong with people working a nine-to-five. I sometimes may throw some shade at them. But I always have to catch myself because I’m like, that was you. And there’s no hate in the game. Everyone is on their own path. And also, have you heard this one experiment? It was an experiment on chickens — chickens having eggs, right? So they have the really rowdy chickens, and then they have the chickens who do their job and just lay the eggs. They did this experiment where they put all the nine-to-five chicken heads in one coop. And they just did their job. None of them died. They just did their job and laid the eggs. Then they put all the rowdy chicken heads, all the aggressive ones, all the smart ones, in another coop, and they all died. So the moral of the story is that when you own a business or own an agency, you’ve got to have both chickens. If you hire all the crazy rowdy chickens, the agency will die because they’re all crazy.

Julia: But it’s so true! So okay, when I get to a Friday at 5pm — like last Friday, for instance — I was definitely the rowdy chicken that was going to literally put myself in my own grave. And I was like, okay, you got to shut off. So that Monday you can come back and be the not-so-crazy chicken. Yeah, we have to pull ourselves back sometimes. So true. Okay, so tell me, since you’ve started Kami, what has been your biggest win and your biggest fail?

Eurah: My biggest win honestly was just starting — starting the business. That was it.

Julia: Yes, you go girl!

Eurah: And obviously getting new clients is always a win. But just starting was the big one. Biggest fail — I was thinking about this. And I feel very fortunate that we haven’t had any big fails just yet. But I would say our biggest fail is that my partner and I are best friends. So it is a blessing and a curse that we live in different cities. She is in DC and I’m in New York.

Julia: Gonna have fun along the way.

Eurah: Yeah, you have to. And it’s a blessing that we are best friends and we have such crazy hilarious humors that we can get through things together by laughing and just having fun. Every day, we think, what are we doing? Like, yo, what are we doing? But let’s just do it. Let’s just see where it goes.

Julia: Well, there you go — as a perfect juxtaposition to mentors, which are so important. It’s also so important to find those kindred spirits that you can not only be friends with, but you can work with — that you have this sometimes magical synergy, where you’re thinking the same thing as each other. And each person brings that puzzle piece to make it together. That is also so important. I think a lot of people, maybe not recent grads, but there was probably a day where graduates came into the working world and it was like every person for themselves. Like, we don’t need to form bonds or have relationships. I’m just gonna be all about me. No, don’t do that.

Eurah: I totally agree. And I was so surprised at how supportive this small business community is. Everyone’s so supportive. Look at me and you — we’re basically, you know, we should be competing over projects, but look, we’re on a podcast together. And I think that we level each other up. Because that’s what we’re supposed to do in this community. That’s the whole reason for small business — we should support each other and make sure that the money is being funneled throughout everyone. That’s really the biggest goal of mine.

Julia: What I love about the Freelancing Females group is everyone just shows up for each other. Total strangers. But just, if you help me, I help you, we all win. I love that. It’s like, I got you, Sis — we’re fam by now. All right, so last question. What would you say to your peers still working for an agency that may be considering, should I go out on my own? What would you say to them? They’re like, I don’t know if I like this nine-to-five. Maybe I should work for myself. Or maybe they’re thinking I should become a freelancer. What would you say?

Eurah: I think that if you’re thinking about it, then you have to do it. Because you’re just going to be thinking about it until you retire. Like, if it comes to mind, then it needs to be done. And I also know that it’s very hard for people to think about life without a paycheck. A lot of people can’t make that decision. And their setback for not going out on their own is that they might not have enough savings to hold on for the next few months. Or they need to make sure that their side business is making X amount of money before they leave their nine-to-five, which is totally understandable. You have to look out for yourself because no one is going to look out for you. But just coming from my own experience — if the entrepreneur world is meant for you, those opportunities will come for you. Just make the decision and everything else will follow. You just have to make the moves and consistently make moves. You can’t just sit around a desk and wait for clients to come — it’s not gonna work like that. You have to at least put in a little bit of work, but it will come. And I think that we just have to trust the world that if it’s in our path, it will be there.

But I’m sure people are like, shut up, what about money? If it’s meant for you, it’s going to come. When you make the decision, it will always be the right decision. You will never make a wrong decision.

Julia: I mean, when I left my last job, when I finally came to that decision — the day that I left, or the day I said I was going to leave, I really had no plan. I just trusted that something was going to happen, that I was going to make it happen once I closed that door and then stepped in through another. And I was so lucky. I have a background in sales and never truly wanted to do sales. But here I am, the main sales person. And 45 days later, when I left to be on my own, I already had jobs lined up. I had been networking, I had been doing all the things. But I hadn’t necessarily thought about it 45 days earlier. But I think your advice is spot on. And you believed in yourself.

Eurah: You were like, I don’t know what’s next. But I believe in myself and I trust the world. That’s all you have to do.

Julia: And I didn’t sit at my desk just waiting for things. I went out and started making them happen. I just did things organically — reached out to people that I knew, had conversations, started to think about all those things.

Eurah: Yeah. And I also believe that sometimes you have to shed some things from your life to make room for more things. Like even in your home, physically, but also mentally. You need to shed this nine-to-five or you need to shed this job that you don’t like in order for the new opportunities to come. Because right now, there’s no room for it.

Julia: Yeah, like the side hustle may never be bigger than it is if you’ve always seen it as a side hustle. Because you’re ultimately focused on your job right now. So you want to make that side hustle — something to consider is, what is the potential of that once I can put 100% of my attention and focus and energy towards it? Agreed. Well, with that we’re gonna sign off. But thank you, thank you, thank you so much.

Eurah: Thank you for having me.