Episode 59: Hacks for Perfectionism
Learn how to spot perfectionism’s triggers, push back on unhealthy norms, and build everyday practices for more sustainable, collaborative careers.
Blog Recap
Perfectionism might feel like a badge of honor, but as Dr. Jodi Vandenberg-Daves explains in this episode of Two Marketing Moms, it often masks fear and fuels burnout. Instead of seeing perfectionism as a fixed trait, she urges us to recognize it as a pattern triggered by certain environments—like high-pressure workplaces, unclear standards, or cultures that lack psychological safety.
Dr. Jodi shares practical strategies to shift from perfectionism to progress:
- Do an audit — reflect on where perfectionism shows up, where it doesn’t, and what values, strengths, and goals truly guide your work.
- Build your “Perfectionism Mitigation Team” — surround yourself with people who ground you, remind you of your worth, and help you embrace rest and imperfection.
- Redefine success — especially during stressful life or work cycles, adjust your expectations and celebrate growth instead of flawlessness.
- Normalize mistakes — stop over-apologizing and view missed opportunities as part of your intentional focus, not failures.
Her takeaway: perfectionism doesn’t create excellence—self-awareness, community, and courage do. By replacing “I have to be perfect” with “I’m here to learn and lead,” we create space for authentic leadership and sustainable success.
Transcript
Kelly Callahan-Poe
Welcome to the Two Marketing Moms Podcast. I’m Kelly Callahan-Poe, and today’s episode is called perfectionism hacks with Dr. Jodi Vandenberg-Daves. Jodi is a leadership strategist, coach and former professor who empowers leaders at every career stage, focusing on values, social impact and inclusive communities. Thanks for joining me today, Jody.
Dr. Jodi Vandenberg-Daves
It’s such a pleasure to be here. Thanks for having me.
Kelly
Well, perfectionism is a topic that’s near and dear to my heart, unfortunately, and something I need to work on. What are some of the most common perfectionism triggers that you see in professionals?
Jodi
Yes, I appreciate the emphasis on triggers, because one of the things I try to talk about is not thinking about perfectionism as sort of a fixed personality trait, but something that exists in real time and context in our lives and actually is created oftentimes by different contexts and socialization and things like that. So, we can unpack it a little bit, and looking at triggers is one way that we can do that. So, something that a lot of us are facing in this historical moment is rapid change situations and when we’re the rules are changing. The ground is shifting underneath us. A default strategy can be, I better be perfect. I better be perfect. So that can be one important perfectionism trigger we can also be triggered when we’re starting something new and sort of forgetting to give ourselves the grace of learning. And Brene Brown talks a lot about first times she has another word in front of that, but first times being difficult moving into leadership roles. I especially see this for women. There’s so often some self-talk for women around leadership is I don’t feel ready. I don’t see myself doing that having, you know, one of the things I try to help people realize is you’re going to grow into that role, you know, and but knowing that you don’t know how to do it perfectly, yet can really be a perfectionism trigger barriers, discrimination, feeling pushed aside, feeling overlooked, not succeeding at work in the way you’d hoped, and not even being sure what that is. You know, Am I really in a discriminatory situation, or is it just me, or is it just that person, all that kind of headspace that is taken up with that kind of energy can also put us kind of back on our heels, and we can resort to sort of perfectionistic thinking. So those are some, some big, significant triggers.
Kelly
Workplace culture really tends to reinforce perfectionism. And I’ll give you an example from my early days at an advertising the agency that I worked at right out of college.
The head of the agency would go in the morning, very early 830 and do what we called bed checks to make sure everyone was there sitting at their desks, and do the same thing in the evenings, around six o’clock. So, we felt like you know you had to be there certain hours. So that’s one example of a situation where perfectionism was mandated. In essence, you had to have certain number of hours. So, you know, what other norms should listeners watch out for?
Jodi
Yeah, that’s a powerful story, and I’m sorry you experienced that, especially I think when we experience when we experienced that, when we’re young, it can reinforce this idea that this is how it’s supposed to be because of the authority is making it look that way. I think there are, there are a number of workplace situations like that, high pressure to perform with, especially unclear standards. You know, when people don’t know exactly what’s expected of them, high pressure environments in terms of deadlines and a constant sense of urgency. And sometimes that sense of urgency is really created by the culture, not necessarily by the work. I spent a lot of time in higher ed, and one of our leaders there in Higher Ed did say there are no emergencies in higher education, but at the same time, although that person said that there’s still, there’s so much about the way the email came in, the way the deadlines came, the way people talked and worked and spoke, and the energy that felt very much often like we have to do this now or else, And that can, again, just impact our nervous systems in a way that promotes perfectionism. Lack of psychological safety at work. Can also do that and being made to feel that we don’t belong. I really love the work of Jenny Vasquez-Newsum, who writes a book called Untapped Leadership: Harnessing the Power of Underrepresented Leaders. And she talks a lot about well, partly her own experience as a black woman, trying to unpack what imposter syndrome means, and then thinking and noticing, well, there are many spaces when I was made to feel I did not belong, so no wonder I felt like an imposter. And she also talks a lot about how to build resilient systems and workplaces; we need to understand that steep learning curves need to be supported with steep support curves. So when we’re onboarding, when we’re teaching people new roles, a really thoughtful workplace, kind of system approach from leaders would be when we have people learning new things, they need lots of lots of support, and let’s not assume that people know how to do X, Y or Z, especially in workplaces too, where there’s kind of an old guard that has made rules that might not be transparent when people who are newer to the space are trying to do things in their own way and not getting supported, or even not understanding what landlines they might be stepping on. Those are places of low psychological safety, often for people so and that places that that devalue all kinds of diversity, whether it’s gender, neurodiversity, race, disability, LGBTQ, plus status, all those kinds of things that devalue that kind of diversity tend to be low psychological safety environments, and those can also be triggers for perfectionism at work. And part of the challenge with all that is that when people are operating in that mode of perfectionism, they’re actually usually not doing their best work. They’re polishing the gem, rather than kind of being able to step back and see the big picture, or kind of produce at more of a meta level and see how they can make things better with a little risk taking a little new question, framing a little creative thinking, all those kinds of things are stymied by perfectionism. And so, when workplace cultures inadvertently usually promote that, they are stymieing the best work that they could be getting out of their emerging leaders, or actual leaders.
Kelly
When we chatted earlier, you mentioned a couple of strategies to address perfectionism that I hadn’t heard before. Can you share those?
Jodi
Yeah, I like to think about addressing perfectionism as with a growth mindset, and that includes a growth mindset about yourself knowing that you’re often, I often identify myself as a partial and recovering perfectionist. I’m not a perfectionist about everything. You know. There are many things’ people will go, no, you’re definitely not a perfectionist about that you were, you know, and so like understanding there are areas of our lives where we’re not perfectionist, yeah, and how can we maybe learn from that? How can we honor our own growth? Things that maybe used to be really challenging for us are less challenging now it used to be so hard for me to be a public speaker, and now I’m really just used to that, and I am less perfectionistic about it, because I trust myself more, because I practiced it. Like so many things, we grow into them. So other things I think about are kind of doing an audit, an audit of our stories our own. Like, I’ve kind of been suggesting there, like, where have I been perfectionistic? Where have I not? Where Have I grown. an audit of our values and how those can anchor us, and how maybe those have been anchoring us when we’ve been in tough times before, an audit of the value that we bring our core strengths So that if we’re operating from our core strengths and we’re feeling more in alignment with values and strengths, we’re going to be anchored more psychologically, and we’re going to have a clear idea of what to say no to and what to say yes to. I often would think about, you know, things to say yes to. As a when I was a faculty member, you get to a certain stage in your career, people are like, well, you could do that. I bet you could be helpful with that. But how about we task you with that? And I would often, and thankfully, I had some choices in that. Let’s be clear, people don’t always have choices, but when you have choices, to be right, to be mindful of do I bring unique expertise on this? Or could someone else just as easily do this? Yeah, is this something that is going to enhance the direction I want to go? Am I going to learn some new things, make some new connections, grow in my skills or no, those are things that you need to be paying attention to. Another thing I like to think about with the audit is, what’s my role? You know, what do people hire me to do here? And am I doing a lot more of it than I actually need to? To be people pleasing, because I feel afraid because I’m not sure what the standards are, and if you are doing a lot more than your role, but in a way that other people are kind of being more influential on than you are, how can you empower yourself in that way? Maybe it’s a conversation with your manager with all that in hand. You know, here’s my role, here’s what I find I have been doing. Can we talk about my workload? Can we talk about my role? Can we talk about where I’d like to go and where I think I could be most useful to the organization, and start those conversations be that advocate for yourself. And then I think about auditing your resources, and that includes your kind of inner resources, emotionally, spiritually, whatever, the people around you that support you. perfeand so, especially if you have more of a formal leadership role, start conversations about perfectionism in the workplace. Normalize it. Tell your own story. Be vulnerable about it. If you’re not in that position, or you are, whatever, find your people who you can talk with, whom you can talk about this, and with whom you can be real. And when you find yourself encouraging them, then you bring that back on yourself. Say, you know, what did I just say to her? I bet I could reflect that back on myself. I think those are some of the big strategies that that I talk about and being aware, I would say too, being aware of those triggers, right? So, the audit also includes the triggers. And for in my mind, the audit also includes where am I in the cycle of work. So maybe I just finished this huge project, and I’m really just exhausted. Maybe I have, like entirely too much on my plate with what my teenager is going through at home right now, or a health situation in my family, or a new baby, or whatever it might be, your own health situation. So, you know, how can you really bring your best in these perfectionistic high standards in those situations? You really can’t. So, you’re going to have to adjust, like, what is success for me and what is a good job? But that self-awareness can really help. Conversely, maybe you’re in a cycle of, I’m excited, like, I’m this project really fires me up. I love working with this person I get to work with and then notice how you have more confidence because you’re aligned and use that as a resource to fuel yourself forward and to remember it if you get stuck in a in a loop again. Does that make sense?
Kelly
Yeah, you called this team of people that helped support you. You called it your perfectionism mitigation team, which makes me laugh, because it just reminds me of a bunch of people that somehow attach you to the couch to watch Netflix.
Jodi
Well, you know that could be a big part of your perfectionism mitigation team to value relaxation. Absolutely.
Kelly
One makes me do yoga. One makes me eat well, yeah, so that that gives some interesting visuals when you, when you think about it, like your own version of Ghostbusters.
Jodi
Yes, well, and my husband is part of my team, in part because he’ll always call himself a type B and A B team player. He’ll, he’s like, let me set an example for you, it doesn’t. It doesn’t always have to be better, you know. Let me show you how it’s done. I’m gonna sit here and watch Netflix, not a bad thing.
Kelly
You have a downloadable guide on your website called Confronting Perfectionism and Imposter Syndrome, which I’m gonna link in the notes. How does perfectionism connect to imposter syndrome?
Jodi
Well, they both have a lot to do with fear, right? And they’re often studied together. You know, I’m not a psychologist, but I’ve looked into the research, and they’re so they’re often studied togethergrowthisn’t that funny that you know just not meeting your own standards, but it’s people going, look how great you are, and then you go, really, wait a minute. So, and I think they’re also connected in that they are they are not just our personal issues. They are things that are, there are some of our workplace experiences, like the bed checks and the gatekeeping kinds of things, or the lack of transparency or the criticism can really help promote for us. So, yeah, there’s a connection there. And I think. But as far as the mitigation strategies, they’re really quite similar as well.
Kelly
Are there any other everyday practices that can help to loosen the grip of perfectionism?
Jodi
Yeah, one thing I talk about a lot with people is trying to embrace mistakes and missed opportunities and learn how, particularly for women, learn how not to apologize over mistakes. Practice that. Model it for others. See how other people do it. And you know, oops that fell off my radar, hopefully we can get to it next time. Could be one way to do the mistakes also for missed opportunities as a department chair. When I was a department chair at the university, there were always new things coming into my email about ways we could partner and we could do this, and this could happen in our classrooms, and people were doing their jobs all over campus promoting opportunities, and it became overwhelming, and I thought, you know, I need to embrace missed opportunities as actually part of my weekly goals. So, if I’m checking it off my list that I missed an opportunity, I’m just going to call it a goal, a goal achieved and do it in such a way that you’re still building relationships by saying, thank you so much for thinking of that. It sounds like a wonderful idea right now that you know, I or the department, is really stretched with the things we have on our plate. Maybe that you could partner with this unit or group, or maybe you can come back to us and talk about it. Or maybe we could do, consider doing a piece of that, and that is also how we, you know, not just as a leading a unit, but also how we do it. I think when people ask us to do things just personally, to say again, thank you for thinking of me, not possible right now, and don’t apologize for I’m so sorry. I just can’t right now. It’s just you’re speaking up for your just speaking your truth about what’s on your plate and what is something that you’re going to have to miss right now, maybe not forever, but for right now and maybe forever, because you can’t take advantage of every opportunity. You just can’t. Exactly,
Kelly
You have a book coming out.
Jodi
Yes, I’m excited.
Kelly
Tell me about the book.
Jodi
It’s called Leading with Courage: a Career-Long Guide for Idealistic Women. So this is about this is a career long guide, and it is a form of leadership advice literature to women, but it is really not focused on leadership as having a title. It’s focused on leading from anywhere at every at any level, inclusive, transformational, values based leadership. And I wrote this book after teaching for many years on women’s leadership at the university level and then also out in the community and speaking and workshopping and practicing and realizing there I was often missing what I felt like people wanted and needed, at least in the spaces where I was, which is to say that a lot of the leadership literature, the sort of advice literature to women, industry, has some biases, and those include the idea that leadership means a formal title, that real leadership means getting to the top, you know, with books like nice girls don’t want nice girls don’t get the corner office. Or leadership is about corporate CEOs at a place like Facebook that, you know, the students I work with really wouldn’t want to have much to do with. It’s also leadership in these bi coastal places, not in places where people like me live. There’s a lot of ways in which these leaders are not very relatable to many people. And there’s also even the age and stage gap. Like, how do you think about leadership when you’re a college student or when you’re an early career? So, I couldn’t, I didn’t see that. And then I also saw that that leadership advice literature was often kind of values vacant, I guess you could say and that people were focused on kind of the ladder climbing and the transactional pieces. And there’s another kind of bias, which tend to, tends to be, here’s what you need to here’s the things that are holding you back. Why don’t you do them better? And sometimes there’s some context awareness of how systems create these challenges for diverse women, but oftentimes there’s not enough of that, or it gets sort of lost. And so, as a trained historian, as a gender scholar, I wanted to be sure that we’re talking about contexts that people encounter, and how we can develop that context and systems awareness and then be able to step back as a way of empowering ourselves. And I don’t want to replicate the deficit model either, because a lot of the challenges that we face from being othered and marginalized on the basis of our gender or race or other issues are often the ways we develop that context awareness, the superpowers of emotional agility, emotional intelligence, decoding systems that weren’t necessarily made by us or for us. When we develop those superpowers, we can become exactly the leaders that these complex organizations need. So, I tried to write a book about that, and as a story collector, I really also anchored in stories, and I wanted to have age diversity in the women with whom I did the in depth interviews, as well as racial and ethnic and other forms of diversity. And with the stories, I think that it helps put into perspective the really harsh stuff I’ve had to share with my students over many years, the really harsh studies about discrimination and sexual harassment and bullying and the caregiver penalty for mothers, those are all very real, but when you sort of nest them within stories, you see how people cope through them, how they develop wisdom, and how we also kind of have different challenges and tasks at different career stages. So, the book is organized around these career stages, sort of finding your voice, honoring your questions, trying to get established and build confidence and decode these institutions, and then sort of middle career, where we often have lots and lots of responsibilities. Sometimes we’re mothers. Sometimes we’re just overtaxed with all the things that we’re asked to do. Our networks are bigger. We may be formal leaders. We may not be formal leaders. We may be leading projects. We may be trying to step back. It’s a really complicated, messy time but it’s a time when people can often find their flow, and really use those transferable skills that they’ve been, that they’ve been building, and use their leadership platforms, if they have them, whatever leadership they have, to make things better for people around them in a courageous leadership kind of way. And then I even look at older women, how does ageism intersect with some of the challenges they have? How can organizations honor the wisdom the industry, knowledge that they have accrued? And how can we create more intergenerational conversations to help build what is ultimately that bigger goal of this, which is to build more resilient, team oriented people, friendly workplaces, civic spaces that we need more of in our society. And we can do that in part by honoring the different life experiences of different of different people. And research shows that women leaders often have an edge in these ways. Women Leaders are more likely to take diverse perspectives into consideration when making decisions. Women led organizations are more likely to accommodate their employees’ needs with childcare and sexual harassment policies and all the rest. Don’t get me wrong, there are a lot of women leaders who don’t do that, and there are a lot of men leaders who do, but we do see in the research that sort of skew towards the power of women leaders, especially when they feel empowered to use their voices, with their values and their beliefs and to and to be those mentors and to be those courageous leaders.
Kelly
Well, I would like to read the book and have you back on the podcast to talk about that topic? Specifically, great. I would love that. Well, thank you so much for sharing your insights. Today, we’ll post Jodi’s contact information in the transcript as well as a way to order her book on TwoMarketingMoms.com. Thanks for joining.
Jodi
Thank you.
Dr. Jodi Vandenberg-Daves Contact Information
https://www.jodivandenberg-daves.com
https://www.instagram.com/jvdconsulting
https://www.linkedin.com/in/jodi-vandenberg-daves-2b459116
