Episode #43: How to Have Difficult Conversations
Colette Fortin, a divorce mediator turned business coach provides a framework for having difficult conversations that may change your perspective on how to view tough conversations. Learn the types of difficult conversations, different ways to view them, and how to get to the zone of yes using the model and continue the path forward.
How to Have Difficult Conversations Episode Transcript
Kelly Callahan
Thank you for joining the Two Marketing Moms Podcast. Today’s episode is called How to Have Difficult Conversations with Colette Fortin. Colette brings over 30 years of experience in teaching, coaching and divorce mediation, she offers workshops to individuals, leaders and teams and understanding emotional intelligence. By helping individuals gain a better understanding of themselves, their communication styles and their relationships, they can discover what brings them more joy and fulfillment in both their personal and professional lives. Welcome, Colette.
Colette
Thank you. It’s good to be here.
Kelly
Thanks for chatting with me today. So, I have so many questions about what it is that you do, and how you came to do what you do. So, your background is as a divorce mediator, so I can imagine you have a lot of experience having difficult conversations?
Colette
You’re absolutely right. And you know, when I started doing this work, I sort of had a perspective on you know, we have opinions about why relationships and that sort of thing. And as I started working with people, it’s sort of was such an eye-opening experience that really understanding what people are going through and the difficult conversations that we have to have with people really shed a lot of light even into our own relationships in the workplace, and within extended families and families. And that’s where I started to kind of broaden my work around, you know, communication is the number one reason people describe as why the relationship ends. And I started to dig deeper on like, why was that? And it’s and difficult conversations were a big part of it.
Kelly
Well, let’s dig in. you categorize difficult conversations in a really specific way that really simplifies it for me. Can you explain that?
Colette
Yeah, certainly. So, the model that we’re going to talk about in the insights and learnings are going to be about the conversations that you have to have with people, when you know, you’re going to have an ongoing relationship with someone. So, what I’m not talking about is the one and done. So, if you’re firing a client, or you’re, you know, changing directions with a teammate or that sort of thing, where you’re not going to have an extended relationship with this person. That’s not what we’re talking about. We’re talking about those situations where there needs to be and certainly in the workplace, that is, that is a big, big issue is we’re going to be working together for a long time. So, let’s learn how to have these conversations more productively,
Kelly
That makes it makes a lot of sense, and makes it easy to distinguish between the two different types of conversations. So, this model we talked about earlier requires a little bit of a shift in your thinking about difficult conversations. What do you mean by that?
Colette
Well, you know, later, we’re going to talk a little bit about human nature when we disagree, and whatnot. But before we get into the weeds of that there’s some there’s some principles that I really want to encourage people to think about. And it’s, it’s really shifting some preconceived ideas we have about people. And I love to use the example of six and nine. And I don’t know if you know the card game Uno. But when you’re playing cards, depending on what side of the table you’re sitting on, the six can look like a nine and the nine can look like a six. And so, when we’re talking about difficult conversations, just being aware that the other person might be looking at it differently, is kind of one of the one of the underlying principles. The second thing is that very few people are deliberately trying to sabotage the situation. Like people are operating from their own understanding their own perspective, their own bias their own reasons, and that when there’s a hiccup or a problem, I’m keeping that in the back of your mind and saying that people are not trying to make a mess of things in the workplace or, you know, having an argument for the sake of having an argument. Another thing is that we often think about disagreements as a, this, or this. So, this is my position, and this is my position. And our ego really has a hard time allowing for the possibility that two different perspectives could actually be right. Because it’s sort of like, well, if, if we’re not on the same page about something, and I’m allowing you to be right, and suspending my thoughts, then does that make me wrong? Well, I can’t be wrong. So, what happens when people disagree and think about the last argument you might have had with someone or disagreement, we spent a lot of energy trying to convince the other person that I’m right, and you’re wrong. And I’m going to show you why. And I’m going to prove to you why you’re wrong. And so, suspending some of those preconceived notions has to be the starting point for this to work
Kelly
When you and I chatted about this earlier, that was the biggest aha moment for me is trying to understand well, why do they have the point of view that they that they do, and it’s not against me in any shape, or form, it’s just they live in their own universe and their own perspective. And it doesn’t make me wrong, it just me and doesn’t make them right, it just means we have two different perspectives. And so that means that you know, we need to, when you are going to have these conversations, and setting the stage for these conversations does require preparation, and it can become quite stressful. And sometimes people want to even avoid having the conversation altogether, because it’s stressful. So how do you coach people with thinking about that preparation and that stress in mind?
Colette
When we have to have a conversation that we know might be challenging, obviously, there’s something that led to that — there’s been a misunderstanding and miscommunication, something has happened. And now we know we’re going to enter into this space. And for most people, it’s very uncomfortable. So, recognizing that I call it the mud of limbo. When life is predictable, and we know how things stand with our client or our co-worker, and patterns of behavior are predictable, we know where things are going, everything is going well. And it’s easy to get along and communicate well when there are no pressure points. But let’s face it today, there are a lot of pressure points, whether it’s time or budget, or just expectations. And so now you’re going into a difficult conversation and just recognizing that it is an uncomfortable space, that you’re in what I call the mud of limbo, that the conversation is going to be potentially unpredictable. That’s going to trigger anxiety for some people stress, as you said, some people avoid it altogether. And of course, the longer you avoid it, the more it festers, and the more difficult it is. So, recognizing that both parties are entering into this with a heightened anxiety, and all those preconceived No one is trying to sabotage, we’re all doing the best that we can, this person has a different perspective than me. It’s okay that we disagree. Those are all foundational pieces, as you say, you have to prepare for that space.
Kelly
I love the mud of limbo. And it really just really comes brings to light all sorts of visualizations in your head, no one really wants to be stuck there. You want to know, are you in? Are you out? Where do you stand? So, I think that’s a really good way to think about it and talk about it. So, let’s talk through this. You’ve identified there’s an issue, you’ve taken the time to repair, you understand this is a stressful situation for both parties. So, what does the framework look like from there? And then how does this model that you’ve come up with evolve over time for you?
Colette
Well, certainly, you know, I asked people often to think about difficult conversation that they’ve recently had, or a disagreement. And this might sound familiar as what your internal voice might have been saying, You don’t know what I’m dealing with. This will never work. I have too many competing priorities. This person doesn’t understand me, I hear you. But that’s my favorite one. I hear you, but have you considered or you didn’t consider? And so, we all do that. And certainly, for me working in divorce mediation. It didn’t take me long. I mean, I came into this work thinking okay, as I said that, you know, there’s sort of some common elements as to why people separate and part of our process is just getting to know people. And it was astounding to me how in those get to know you conversations, I would sometimes leave after meeting with the second spouse and saying were these two people in the same marriage? Because the perspective of how the relationship evolved, how did communication flow and what were the pressure points could be completely different. And that’s when I started to realize about this concept of two truths. I came across the book by Lisa McLeod and I saw her speak at a conference, I think it was 15 years ago. And the book is called The Triangle of Truth. And it was the concept that two people can have a very different truth. And they do. And one does not have to be wrong for the other one to be right. And that really hit home for me when I was working with my clients. And if you imagine a triangle, and it’s sort of like my truth, your truth, and if we just stay in our corners, then there is no greater solution. And that’s, that’s the human nature of the either or thinking.
Kelly
I was going to ask; can you give us an example in the marketing world of how we can see how this model actually works?
Colette
For sure. So, when you are in a space where you need to think about suspending your truth, so that you can allow the other person to really share what’s behind the curtain when there’s because obviously, we’re having this conversation, because there’s been an issue, a hiccup, a misunderstanding, something derailed. And so, understanding that your truth is different than the other person is that foundational piece, but being able to take time to hear that then allows you to move into what that zone of yes might look like, it can be greater understanding, it can be about new solutions that you hadn’t contemplated. So, let’s imagine in your world, your organization is struggling to keep projects on budget. That sounds familiar. Oh, wait, it’s every day, services and strategy are pointing fingers at each other? Well, you don’t and so. So now there’s conflict between these two groups, and you’re the leader of both areas, and you’ve been working through and trying to implement a new management system that’s going to bring accountability and transparency so that budgets don’t go overboard. Okay. And you’re getting a lot of resistance from one of your senior leaders about the whole thing. And you’ve decided that you’re going to have a one-on-one conversation with that person. So you go into that conversation, remembering that triangle and saying, Okay, I know, I have my reasons as CEO, or, you know, head of this, this group, to do what I need to do. But I’ve got to suspend that. And I’ve got to try to take some time to figure out what’s behind the resistance, and acknowledge that this person has their own truth about this. And we need to spend some time in that space. And that doesn’t mean I have to agree. It’s not about agreeing or acquiescing. It’s just about acknowledging. So, step one is to acknowledge. Yeah, so that person has said, You don’t understand I’m overstretched things are chaos. You know, we don’t have clarity, it’s not my fault. They’re always studying. So always, never all of that. So, acknowledging might sound like this. When there isn’t clarity on the scope of a project, you feel like you are, you are blamed for that. So, you’re acknowledging that person’s truth. strategy meetings can easily get off course if there’s no pre-planning, am I understanding that correctly? Yes, that’s what’s going on. And then and then it’s my fault if things go for budget, but we should have been organized from the beginning. So, you’re now spending some space in that person’s truth, to be able to acknowledge where they’re coming from. Without enough resources, you feel spread too thin. So, there’s another acknowledgment. And although the ego in us wants to say, Yeah, but I’m responsible for the fiscal integrity of the organization, right? That’s, that’s what happens is the Yeah, but and then there’s the tug of war of who’s going to acquiesce first, just suspend your truth to allow that space to exist. So, what you’ve done now is you set the foundation for you to be able to express what your truth is, and what you’re where you’re coming from. From an organizational health perspective. I need to be sure projects stay on budget, organizational efficiencies are going to enhance, be enhanced with our new system, and allow for more accountabilities and having team members underutilized is not good for helping our organization thrive. Sound familiar? Yeah. So, you’re setting the stage by allowing these truths to exist. And then this is where the magic happens because now what you’ve done is when a person feels heard acknowledged, remember that moment of limbo and that stress and that anxiety and the Yeah, but you don’t, that suddenly that that that amygdala, that stress response is suddenly diffused. Because they’re feeling like, Okay, this is a safe space to say what I need to say, we can have a different point of view. And I’m not going to be challenged in how I feel or what I think. And when you’re in that space, you can reframe, which means turning a negative statement into a pre-solution statement. Some people call it flip thinking, right? Now you’re in this space of creativity to be able to say, Okay, let’s take that pressure point, and see if we can flip it into an opportunity. So, let’s imagine we have the statement strategy meetings get off course if there’s no pre-planning. So having a structure and pre-thought at the planning stage might save time on the back end. Now we flip that statement to what’s not working to what needs to work. Mapping out resources needed at the beginning of the project will help protect the team from burnout. And then this one, which I love is what would it look like for you to be able to move forward with these? With these parameters, what does yes look like for you? Sometimes people have solutions, and we just don’t take the time to hear them. Yeah. So, paraphrase and acknowledge, to role model that two truths exist, then practice the flip thinking or the reframing, so that you can start to see if there is a zone of yes.
Kelly
There basically you’re trying to get at what’s behind the curtain and seeing if there is a yes, in this entire conversation through the set of questions and re-expressing and expressing and reframing and paraphrasing.
Colette
Exactly, exactly. And so sometimes we make assumptions we all do about people’s motivations or people’s truth. And that conversation can be quite eye-opening around what was behind the curtain. So, suppose in that scenario, the resistance to the new CRM program was that the person was stretched. It was a resourcing issue, more than a process issue. But you don’t know that until you have that till you have that conversation. So, there could be two paths forward. So, a new zone of yes, might be, I appreciate you taking the time for us to talk about this, I think we have a better solution forward, we are going to move ahead with the CRM program, but I’m going to allocate some budget dollars to hire a contractor for three months to help with implementation. So that could be one path, a new solution. Second path, we’re still moving ahead, notice how the senior leader’s truth that we are implementing this program hasn’t changed. But they’ve heard what’s behind the resistance to see well, is there a way we can have that win, win and make it work for everybody? So, the second path is, I appreciate you taking the time to talk to me about it, we are going to move ahead. I don’t have the budget dollars right now. But I’m going to see whether we can plan for that in the next quarter so that you have some resources to handle the change that’s coming. Because at the end of the day, this is not about just I’m going to hear your truth and give everybody everything that they want. Because sometimes that’s not possible.
Kelly
The zone of yes…I’m putting that on my bulletin board so I can remember it. Because it makes a lot of sense. And it reframes your thinking. So, all of this is all about seeking to understand the perspective of the other. Right?
Colette
Absolutely. And changing your perspective and just allowing for that space to exist, can go a long way. As a leader. Sometimes as leaders, we think we have to have all the answers to solve everything. We’re the problem solvers. And it’s amazing when you allow that space to exist, and you create a new culture of conversation. I actually don’t like calling them difficult conversations, because even just thinking about it, like going to have a difficult conversation, it’s going to give me stress. So, I like to use the frame of reference. We’re going to have a conversation about a difficult topic.
Kelly
Oh, that’s good. Right?
Colette
Yeah, it’s a lot less intense. It adds a lot less emotional charge around it. As leaders, I think it sets the stage for a different culture around. When we’re not on the same page, this is a safe space to disagree, but there’s a right way to do it. And the finger-pointing and blame game and emotional hijacking does not allow for creative solutions or mutual respect, right?
Kelly
Well, Colette, thank you so much for your time today. I have learned a lot myself. I know anyone who listens to the podcast will learn a lot from this very short podcast. But I appreciate you sharing your valuable insights. If someone wants to learn more or have an opportunity to work with you on an individual or a team basis, how can they reach you?
Colette
They can find me on LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/colette-fortin-bed-cdfa-accfm-90091b23/ .
We can connect through LinkedIn and chat more. Lots of work I do with leaders is around this work. And I’ll help leaders who often tell me that people come to them with problems and they’re trying to fix and they’re just putting out fires all the time. And I’ll take them through an exercise of who are the two individuals that are struggling and we’ll go through a two-truths exercise together so that the leader can start to guide people through those conversations and really shift how we handle disagreements and conflict in the workplace.
Kelly
Well, I will definitely be one of those people that calls you. So, thank you for your time today. We’ll talk soon.
