Episode #2 Navigating Change as a Working Mom in Advertising
In this episode, we talk about our early years working and juggling kids and work, and finding our personal and professional tribes and support systems. From breastfeeding at work, managing childcare, to making your own rules without feeling guilty, we talk about our different approaches to juggling it all.
Navigating Change as a Working Mom in Advertising Episode Recap
In this episode, Julia and Kelly discuss their experiences building their careers while juggling motherhood. They emphasize the importance of finding a support system, managing breastfeeding, childcare, and making their own rules. The podcast aims to provide tips, tricks, and advice for marketing and advertising professionals, especially those who are balancing work and family life.
Julia shares her journey of becoming a mom three times at different points in her career. Her first child came after getting married at 28, and the experience was like a young love honeymoon. Her second child arrived during a challenging period amid a recession, while the third child came unexpectedly as she was venturing into her own business. She reflects on the different challenges she faced during each phase of motherhood.
Kelly, who has three children, discusses her experience raising kids without much support from family nearby. She emphasizes the importance of finding a supportive network of other moms. She also highlights the value of keeping one foot in the workforce, even if through freelance work, to maintain career continuity.
Both hosts agree on the significance of finding a supportive boss and demonstrating to younger staff that family is a priority. They acknowledge the guilt that comes with balancing work and family life but stress the need to talk it down and find ways to manage it.
The hosts also discuss the challenges faced by moms in unsupportive workplaces and offer advice on how to navigate such situations. They conclude by encouraging listeners to consider the various pieces of advice shared, even if they don’t have a specific plan for their career and motherhood journey.
Episode Transcript:
Julia
This episode we talk about the early years of building our careers, and then finding a support system while juggling kids and work. And of course, all the things that working moms deal with breastfeeding, childcare, and making your own rules.
Welcome to the Two Marketing Moms Podcast. We are two women with more than 50 years of marketing and advertising experience between us and we want to talk about the struggles, the fails and the wins that we experienced while building our careers. Being a boss, juggling work and home life, and arguably the hardest and yet most fulfilling job, being a mom. This podcast was created for marketing and advertising professionals, especially the up-and-coming marketing stars of the future. We hope these tips tricks and advice will help you navigate work in life and get ahead.
Today’s episode is Episode Two, and we’re going to continue the conversation from our first podcast where we talked about our careers and make the leap into when life really started to change. And we started our families and became moms because we know that whether you’re a mom now, or you were a mom, and your kids are grown and out of the house, or even if you’re someone that is thinking about this in the near or far future, there’s so many things to unpack about there is going to affect your career, your life trajectory. So, I’m Julian McDowell. And I’m here with Kelly Callahan.
Kelly
All right, we’re excited about talking about this today because it’s back to school. And for us here in the greater DMV area, we had back to school virtually, which has been a much better experience than it was in the spring, which we can do a whole episode on that, but I don’t want to talk about it.
Julia
We’ll just send each other a PM about that experience
Kelly
Oh, it’s a day-by-day kind of thing. You know, so I want to throw it to you Julia because you more recently became a new mom 3 years ago with your third child. And so, I feel like your memories may be much more tappable than mine. So, talk to me a little bit about your experience in managing, you know, the process of becoming a mom and working and then becoming a mom again. And then for the third time and how has that worked for you? And how have you managed that? What has worked for you?
Julia
Oh, man, I have so many things to say, um, talk about being a mom. Okay. Well, I think how I like to approach it is, I had all three of my kids during very different kind of places in my career. And just to recap, my first kid, I got married, my husband and I had been together for a long time. And we just really wanted to start a family and so we just got married young.
Kelly
Let’s mention that, because I think that’s important.
Julia
Yeah, so well, not as young as some people. But I was 28 when I got married. And my husband and I had been together for four years already. And we wanted to start a family. So that was really like it was just this young love honeymoon, starting a family. So, we like kind of didn’t really start off with a plan really. And I was still fairly new into my career. My boss at the time really believed in, putting in your years of work and working up the ladder. But then my second child came quickly after my second one. 19 months apart.
Kelly
Awesome.
Julia
Yeah, I similar to you, right. 16 months part.
Kelly
Yeah.
Julia
So, you know, the craziness of that, right. But it came at a time during, kind of the recession of 2011-2012 time period. And so, we had layoffs where I was working. And it was it was a weird time and it while I was having a child, I was also kind of working up in the ranks to in terms of taking on more responsibility and — we can get into that later–but, and then my third child, we tried for a long time, and she never, or he or she never arrived, and then poof, it just hit me unexpectedly, and at the same time where I was deciding to venture out on my own and create my own new thing, so that was like a whole new, box of chocolates to deal with at that time, so when I think about it, my approach to all three, as I told you before, I had zero plan. And all of my kid’s kind of arrived at different places in my career. So, there were definitely different challenges. And I can honestly say, at the time, I didn’t say, oh, what did I do last time? Just because every kind of situation was different. I don’t know. It’s probably you feel the same way? I mean, tell me, so you have three kids.
Kelly
Yes. We have six between us. I have all boys. So. my youngest is 12. My middle child is 14 and my oldest is 15-16. Two in high school one in middle school. So that’s a little freaky to have two kids in high school, because that means that I’m old enough to have…
Julia
They look taller than you, right?
Kelly
Yes. Two of them are taller. My 12-year-old is not quite there. But will be in the next year. So yeah, that’s kind of strange. But good. Yeah. I got married when I was 34.. And we had our first child at 35, within one year, which was pretty fast. I mean, we were trying, but not trying. And it happened much quicker than I thought it was going to happen. And within four months of having the first, I got pregnant with the second so that was you know, wow, okay, we’re gonna go. And then after I had my second, and he was two, I got pregnant with a third. So, there was a point where I had three kids under four, if I recall. It was insane. I don’t remember most of it. I’ll be honest.
Julia
Anyone who’s not a mom listening to this, you have to block those things out.
Kelly
You will. Yeah, you do forget, you forget all those sorts of things. But for me, the hardest part was living on the East Coast, my family’s in Colorado and my husband’s families on the west coast. We didn’t have a support system. And that was hard. So, I had to try and find my tribe, find my people that we’re going to help support our family. And your tribe can be many different things. It’s your tribe, your village, whatever you want to call it, it takes a village, you know, Hillary Clinton’s book. So, for me, I had a very supportive mother-in-law, who was willing to come three to four times a year and stay for a month at a time, and she was really helpful with all three kids. But in order to get back in the workforce, you know, I had a good amount of time, I had at least 10-15 years under my belt. And so, I was in a place in my career where I could actually step back and do freelance work and not have to work full time.
So, I freelanced and I worked. When my kids were super young, I worked in a nonprofit, the National Council on Aging. And I was really super lucky because I found this wonderful boss who was a grandmother, and she had daughters that were younger than me, but they also had children. And so, she was a grandmother. And she had this entire network of women who were all moms that she tapped into, because she understood how difficult it was for her daughters to work and have children. And so, what I would do is, I would deal with the kids during the day, and at night, after eight o’clock at night, when I put the kids to bed, I would work from eight till midnight, and I would write a marketing plan, etc. And then I would pass that work off to a web developer, for example, or writer, and she had a whole network of women who were all working that same time period between 8pm and midnight. And so, we all kind of work together and collaborated. So, by the time she got in the morning, all her work was done, it didn’t matter that it wasn’t done between nine and five. It’s done.
And I just I loved Donna Phillips Mason. She is my wonderful mentor that I really appreciate for doing that for me and I’ll never forget her for that. I think it’s something that there should be a network of women out there because most women that I know who either aren’t working or new moms, they want to work in some way, shape or form. Yeah, but they don’t know how. Because to go to a traditional, you know, time punch clock type job is difficult when you have young children because you have to pay for childcare, and it is extremely expensive, which is another topic that we can get into. So how did you handle that with, with childcare?
Julia
Well, so I feel like your situation in the DC area is really typical, right? I’m kind of one of the weirdos that kind of grew up in this area. And so, my husband and my family both live here still. We have a supportive network of family. Unfortunately, when my kids, when my oldest two were born, our parents were still working full time. And they really offer a lot of support. And to be honest. Again, I also find this interesting, I really resisted finding my village, because one, I didn’t really know where to look. And two, I was afraid of being vulnerable. And talking about my struggles, especially with my first two. And they were first born, like I had kids that basically never slept for their first years of life, all of my kids. And so, I was like a walking zombie. So, you know, for my situation. With my first few kids, it was so much easier that I was younger. And I didn’t have the level of responsibility that you probably had,, when you started having kids a few years later than I did. So that kind of helped mitigate, like my wandering lostness of what I was doing, but my kids got into daycare, and I started working on, I got like, eight weeks of maternity leave. And then I took a month off of unpaid so that I could make it to 12 weeks. And then my kids went to daycare, and we got into this group for many years of them going to daycare, with preschool or whatever. And then by the third, obviously, everything changed and things are so different.
But, I wanted to say let’s talk about that for a second, the village thing, because you clearly got that concept. And I clearly resisted it and didn’t ever really find it. It’s only in the last couple years that I’ve been able to figure out, what are those specific networks that I need to go in, you know, like, the workout network, support my mind, my health and my fitness, right. And then there is the neighborhood network of the moms that know all the crap about school that I have no idea about. And then there’s also the circle of moms within work that support each other. And I’m, like, I’m in those now. But when I had my first two kids, I really wasn’t. And so, when you say you were in a position where you could, leave and freelance and, and have that opportunity to have those type of that type of work. I was not in that place. If I had left work at that time, I really would have been lost there too. I didn’t truly understand the value of the network at that time. It wasn’t I mean; I think I am a relationship builder type of person, but I think I was just maybe too young to focus on it. So, I don’t know, I just wanted to like your reaction about that.
Kelly
You had your family live near you. I didn’t have a choice because my family wasn’t here. Unless I beg them to come. And I’ll be honest, I looked at childcare, I looked at daycare, and I had a nanny for a period of time. Once you have two kids it’s the same cost to have a full-time nanny versus daycare, and once you have three all bets are off. And so, we ended up getting an au pair and I’ve been through the Au Pair system and I’m it I’m a big fan of it, converted, but the au pair lives with you. There’s a cost benefit analysis you have to do because you end up kind of getting another daughter to a certain extent. And I’ve had wonderful au pairs, and I’ve had not so good au pairs and my last three were wonderful. And in fact, several are like my adopted daughters, and I’m still extremely close to them today. And I talk to them on a daily basis. And you know, they’re still a part of my life so that, helped me having someone that I trusted watching my kids, it helped me to kind of take a step back and start getting back into the workforce. Outside of just freelancing when they were very young, I was only freelancing. I never took a foot out, I always kept one-foot in.
And that’s one of my biggest recommendations is, in some way, shape or form. If you are able to keep one foot in, in the work world, as opposed to taking both feet out, it makes you so much less vulnerable when you’re able to go back, because I do have friends, for example, that had young children from 2000 to 2010. They missed the internet revolution, that meant they didn’t know social media, they had none of that background information. And that’s a long time period to be out of work. So, having one foot in even with freelance projects, to me is really important. But the network for me, it really started with DC Urban Moms, which where you get any sort of questions that I could possibly have, wanting to get supplies, where to get this, where to get fit, or where post a nanny job, all that stuff. I used that online resource.
Julia
Before, right?
Kelly
Yes, yes. That’s back in 2005 and 2006. Before the iPhone, even I think the iPhone came out 2006, I don’t remember. All I know is, I don’t have any cell phone pictures of my kids. That’s how long ago it was. And the biggest benefit was Montessori school where I sent my children. We sent our children to Montessori School starting at age two and a half to five all three boys. And they had a wonderful teacher at Montessori School and this group of moms that I still talk to today. And the kid’s kind of grew up together. They went to elementary and then junior high we moved from DC to Bethesda. But those moms I’m still close with from back then.
So, the moms’ groups are really important. And you make those friends for life. It’s kind of like the jobs that you get your 20s, you’re always friends with those people, or you know, people you meet in, can be high school, could be college, etc. I’m very close to those moms. And they are the ones that give me the most advice. And I of course, like attracts like. So, I’m going to try, I always wanted to find the moms that had at least two kids. And definitely three kids to give me advice.
And then the other thing that was helpful is like there was a mom up the street and she had three sons before I even had any kids. But it was bewildering to me to this day that I know I’m the mom with three kids, and she was always so confident and handled things with ease. And I always looked up to her like God, how the heck does she handle it? And I asked her advice. And, you know, I think now looking back, I want to make sure that I’m that way to the younger moms in the neighborhood. And you know, other moms, even you know, the women that I work with, because it is hard and you do want advice. But it’s a matter of kind of going out there and sourcing ways to help yourself. You just got to be open to it and start asking questions, because that’s what we want to talk about. And we all need advice.
Julia
Yeah, I mean, I think we talked about that last time. I think a huge thing for me, at least that some of the insights that I did get at that point was talking to other women about their experience with becoming a mom and working and almost, within my little circle of moms that I could talk to like through my current job when I had my first kid, it was insightful to ask them, , what was their process and what was their story and I definitely remember taking away things from their work from their experience that helped me kind of like think about, just planting seeds, because I wasn’t really in the mindset of like, Oh, I’m going to take this advice, you know, but it definitely did plant seeds. And you know, when I came back from maternity leave, I remember a client gave me some wonderful, amazing advice to help me dampen my anxiety of the change of leaving this newborn child and coming back to work and prioritizing work maybe more than my child during the day and the guilt and the all of those emotions right and you know, as my kids got older, her advice was really spot on. If she hadn’t said to me that day, my first day back, she said, they’re well taken care of, and they’re happy. And you’re able to work. And they will never remember that when they need you is when they are older, and they have more real-world emotions, they’re dealing with real world situations, they have increasing responsibility that you have to help them manage. And, now that my oldest is going to turn 10. I think that’s true. They definitely, I’m changing less diapers, but which is a true time suck. But,, I’m helping them with other things that they need me much more than they did when they were little. So, advice again…
Kelly
So, beyond the don’t feel guilty. That’s number one, right?
Julia
Yeah, exactly. Okay.
Julia
So, the other is, you will, no matter what, you will feel guilty, but you got to figure out a way to
live with it, I think. And to talk to your guilt. And talk it down.. The other thing, I think you touched on, which I think is super important, literally, for any mom, or a not yet mom, even to the mom that is, you know, has kids out of the house is really tapping those networks of moms. And as I said, like, Facebook obviously makes it so much easier than it was before because there’s these groups now that you can like literally search for right, like you can search for Mom groups of freelancers, Mom groups of marketing professionals, Mom, you know, all sorts of Mom groups that live in your neighborhood to the neighborhood listserv. But one of the things that, my mentor was always very committed to was hiring moms. And, you know, especially with some of the things that we did that didn’t require full time employees like pitching and like PR functions. Specifically, we always went, we didn’t specifically say you had to be a mom, but we really liked interviewing the moms that were had young children and wanted to do some work, and keep a foot in the door. And so, I think you and I can both agree, like we both, we both still have that commitment, and our way, and find great value to women that still want to,, turn on their thinking cap, while they’re in the middle craziness of life fully.
Kelly
And I think it’s important and beyond that, to make sure that you’re demonstrating to your staff underneath you or people who are younger than you, that your family is number one. And that’s most important. And when you demonstrate that that’s important to you, that demonstrates your values. And that also makes it real to them, okay, well, this is a safe space for me to have children. And it’s going to be a supportive space that’s going to understand what I’m going to when I need to go through. And then I’m going to need, you know, the types of things that she’s asked for flex time, work from home, etc. those sorts of things. So, I think being able to be that mom mentor and demonstrating that, that family first is really the way it should is the way to go.
And then for me, the other ones are finding your backup person. You know, sometimes there’s emergencies that happen and you might not be able to make it back. So, and I’ve been that back-backup person for various women, where I’ve had to go pick up a kid. So, make sure that you’ve got a neighbor, it can be a neighbor or a close friend, someone who’s willing to be there in an emergency. And having that flexible schedule in the first five years, I think is really super important for making sure that you plan your life so that you can make that happen so you aren’t in a situation where you have to punch a time clock, you know when the kids are very young, so you have the ability.
My dad always used to say you don’t want money for money sake, you want money because money buys you options. Money gives you the option to be able to hire a nanny to send your kid to Montessori school or any school before pre k. To have them get an early education, all of those things really set you up so that you can do the things that you want to do. And making sure that you have a supportive boss is really important. That’s not always the case. I’m just going to say, you know, for me, it happened randomly, where I literally happened to interview when I was eight months pregnant with my first child for a freelance gig. And who’s going to hire eight-month pregnant women? Well, Donna Phillips Mason did. Most people wouldn’t do that, you got to give someone credit, you know that they’re going to do that. And so, having a supportive boss is extremely important. And I think, you know, when you when you meet people, you know what’s important and whether or not they’re going to be supportive of having a family.
Julia
Well, I think you also really touched on that. Something that I feel like I’ve had a lot of conversations about is unsupportive bosses. And I feel like a lot of the moms or a lot of the women that are listening to right now probably, you know, at least half of them feel like they have an unsupportive boss, don’t have a work life balance, or a lot of women who work in male dominated fields, you are able to put in a lot more hours and seem like they’re more dedicated, because their wife is their support person and holding it on the back end. And, you know..
Kelly
I want a wife, by the way, I’d like to have another conversation about a rental wife, women need wives as well.
Julia
Well, we could go into like, a whole conversation about the Sister Wives program, which I do not watch. No, no, not that. Well, you know, I also have a lot of military friends who, when my peers were having babies, the military only offered six weeks of maternity leave. And then you were back, crazy! And you are getting into shape. Now it’s evolved. And I’ve heard that many branches of the government of the military at least give you 12 weeks, which is huge. I feel like maybe that’s a whole other podcast, how to navigate workplaces that are supportive, and situations or workplaces that are unsupportive, right?
Like, I’ll just give you one, I had a very supportive workplace, for the most part, but I was, you know, pretty much the only mom at the time, a new mom. And so, there wasn’t a lot of people to commiserate with. And I breastfed exclusively, so I showed up, you know, to after my maternity leave with my pump. And I quickly realized how difficult it is to pump three days a week, three times a day. Yeah, bosses scheduling meetings. Luckily, I had such a good rapport with her that I said, listen, this is the way it’s going to be. So, I’m just going to have to scoot out and dial in from another office while I do this, and then I’ll be back. And I kind of, she allowed me to be bold enough to kind of make some of my own roles. But I realized that some other moms may not, everyone’s situation is different, and they may not have the ability to do that. So maybe that’s what we talk about next time.
Kelly
So, timing is important. Having a supportive life partner, find your village. And make sure you have a supportive boss. That’s open to flex arrangements. You need a flexible schedule. Don’t feel obligated, by the way, to volunteer for everything and do everything at school. Give yourself a break. And find your backup person. Don’t feel guilty kids are resilient, you will of course, and the kids are resilient. And then with your younger staff, demonstrate that family is first they need to know that.
Julia
I echo everything on that list. And also, if you’re a person like me, that is I was telling Kelly like I’m such an A personality, like that’s where, you and I are like so alike. But when you know building my family and navigating, I really didn’t have a plan. So, for those that may not have a plan, some of this advice, take it and think about it because there are a couple things that you probably can pull out. And, if you’re resisting the plan, at least think about things and maybe implement a couple of them might be really helpful. A
Kelly
All right, well, next time we’re going to talk about work.
Julia
All right, well, we’re signing off. We hope you enjoyed this episode. If you liked what you heard on the podcast review us, send us a message to twomarketingmoms.com and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. Until next time!
